tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post2418471067451660277..comments2023-12-24T13:03:35.696+00:00Comments on Miserable Old Fart: A Nationalist not a DevolutionistAlwyn ap Huwhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06194724336424525283noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-8632790367740609032007-07-06T11:50:00.000+01:002007-07-06T11:50:00.000+01:00I find elio's comments negative and depressing. We...<I>I find elio's comments negative and depressing. </I><BR/><BR/>Welcome to the cynical world of politics and freedom of opinion Alan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-89372409522278842132007-07-06T06:21:00.000+01:002007-07-06T06:21:00.000+01:00I find elio's comments negative and depressing. Al...I find elio's comments negative and depressing. Although Plaid is an independence party it does address the concerns of the average Joe and Jane in the streets, and if elio will give them a chance to prove themselves in power he will see this in action. It would be good to see some enthusiasm for the expriment in consensus pollitics in Wales.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258854366964329334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-90454296165897877392007-07-05T22:59:00.000+01:002007-07-05T22:59:00.000+01:00gwe - well you know what happened the last time th...gwe - well you know what happened the last time there was a prolonged economic depression in Western Europe.<BR/><BR/>Another factor in the possible destabilising of Western Europe are the demographics of Islamification. Now it would help if progressive opinion supported groups like the Council of ex-Muslims in Britain instead we get one of Plaid's silly AMs backing the burka.<BR/><BR/>Look Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-80253757098233768392007-07-05T22:21:00.001+01:002007-07-05T22:21:00.001+01:00elio said:"I guess Plaid Cymru is too far gone to ...elio said:<BR/>"I guess Plaid Cymru is too far gone to save. "<BR/><BR/>It does sound dire if you rely on blogs. But thriving in real life, nothing like a kick of coalition adrenalin to shock a party into life:DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-88895106765270981042007-07-05T22:21:00.000+01:002007-07-05T22:21:00.000+01:00Elio - I am not arguing that the nation state is d...Elio - I am not arguing that the nation state is dead, or that Wales is not a credible candidate as an independent country. Quite the contrary. <BR/><BR/>As for the EU being unstable, I don't quite understand what you mean. Yes, "small" countries have joined recently - the vast majority of which emerging from the former Soviet Block. But there has been no significant shift in what we might call "gwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14020459348361714337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-20928428662761173942007-07-05T22:12:00.000+01:002007-07-05T22:12:00.000+01:00how many new countries are there in Europe, a doze...<I>how many new countries are there in Europe, a dozen? </I><BR/><BR/>Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Czech Republic, Bosnia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Armenia, AzerbaijanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-48201488479919033252007-07-05T19:04:00.000+01:002007-07-05T19:04:00.000+01:00gwe - how many new countries are there in Europe, ...gwe - how many new countries are there in Europe, a dozen? And some people say the nation-state is dead. It seems to me that the EU is a pretty unstable creation, how will it cope for example with an economic depression? The UK ... well Ireland quit in 1921, it's handed over a good deal of power to Brussels, the Six Counties are semi-detached and Scotland is on the way to independence .. oh Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-11199976277430311292007-07-05T19:01:00.000+01:002007-07-05T19:01:00.000+01:00Every nation has its unique characteristics and pr...Every nation has its unique characteristics and problems which cannot be resolved by citing another nation's circumstances, or by pursuing their direction. With good leadership and wise guidance Wales will come through, and play its unique role in the politics and economics of Europe.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258854366964329334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-84741352687309012742007-07-05T17:52:00.000+01:002007-07-05T17:52:00.000+01:00"Things happen - go back 20 years and independence..."Things happen - go back 20 years and independence for Estonia or Latvia for example was as far off the agenda as it was possible to be."<BR/><BR/>Yes and no. <BR/><BR/>Yes, Latvians probably thought their day would never come and when it did, the world didn't stop spinning, they got on with it. I don't dispute that should Wales be miraculously handed independence then of course we would, well, gwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14020459348361714337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-65056317871266393342007-07-05T15:32:00.000+01:002007-07-05T15:32:00.000+01:00Plaid's route is the smartest option, and I am not...Plaid's route is the smartest option, and I am not just toeing the party line. But underlying all this is undoubtedly, for all members, the drive to independence.psAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258854366964329334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-13702705609097996222007-07-05T15:14:00.000+01:002007-07-05T15:14:00.000+01:00the ludicrous, disloyal, ambition of achieving an ...<I>the ludicrous, disloyal, ambition of achieving an independent Wales, </I><BR/>Disloyal to who? A bit of psychological projection there, me thinks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-89306970844065073312007-07-05T14:21:00.000+01:002007-07-05T14:21:00.000+01:00It's not time at all. I'm not a Plaid supporter n...It's not time at all. I'm not a Plaid supporter nor a nationalist. In fact I hate both devolution and nationalism. However, if I did have the ludicrous, disloyal, ambition of achieving an independent Wales, I would regard Plaid's route as the smart option.<BR/><BR/>Welsh people, other than such as you (and I actually respect you greatly), at the moment hate the idea of independence. It will Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-55441488420688740782007-07-05T13:40:00.000+01:002007-07-05T13:40:00.000+01:00Elio:couldn't agree more, heck, that comment sound...Elio:<BR/><BR/>couldn't agree more, heck, that comment sounds like something I would have said, good job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-17956642511424356752007-07-05T13:08:00.000+01:002007-07-05T13:08:00.000+01:00Things happen - go back 20 years and independence ...Things happen - go back 20 years and independence for Estonia or Latvia for example was as far off the agenda as it was possible to be. History has given the kaleidoscope a shake and new countries emerge, the certainties that we assume to be set in stone can change in a few tumultious months.<BR/><BR/>In recent years Plaid Cymru has tailed after the world-view typified by the Guardian and the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-26650397874989839312007-07-05T12:35:00.000+01:002007-07-05T12:35:00.000+01:00For me, devolution is simply a process, a mechanis...For me, devolution is simply a process, a mechanism for moving towards our final goal - but our final destination must remain independence (and 2020 is a far more realistic target than 2050)<BR/><BR/>Devolution = <I>Partial</I> Independence<BR/><BR/>Independence = <B>Total</B> DevolutionPendduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10244123496175993094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-19773356836790850352007-07-05T12:22:00.000+01:002007-07-05T12:22:00.000+01:00" Utimately, though, it is the people of Wales who..." Utimately, though, it is the people of Wales who decide. "<BR/><BR/>If it is not clear to those within the party then how can Jo Public make a desicion what to vote for?<BR/><BR/>And they do not know. There is a lot of confusion and a number of ideas floating around. Who do we believe? <BR/> <BR/>The National Executive needs to come clear on exactly what it represents. That would silence Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-43773669714626370882007-07-05T09:17:00.000+01:002007-07-05T09:17:00.000+01:00Oops.. there's a bit missing. The last sentence in...Oops.. there's a bit missing. <BR/><BR/>The last sentence in the last paragraph but one should read:<BR/><BR/>"...when people have become used to having most of the decisions that effect their daily lives decided in Cardiff and not Westminster..."gwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14020459348361714337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-9201300263952307022007-07-05T09:13:00.000+01:002007-07-05T09:13:00.000+01:00Alwyn,First things first, I also said I wouldn't t...Alwyn,<BR/><BR/>First things first, I also said I wouldn't thank Bliar for devolution. <BR/><BR/>Unlike you however, I believe that devolution - in the UK context - is the only way to secure more power for Wales. There is no certainty that a referendum on law making powers would succeed. How you can talk about indepedence as the next workable step in turn amazes me. <BR/><BR/>The first prioritygwehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14020459348361714337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-53142498508773860962007-07-05T07:24:00.000+01:002007-07-05T07:24:00.000+01:00I have a great deal of sympathy for Alwyn's remark...I have a great deal of sympathy for Alwyn's remarks here but I am reluctant to go along with his view that Plaid Cymru is not a nationalist party. I see Plaid as using every device in its drive to independence for Wales, and one of these devices is devolution. Utimately, though, it is the people of Wales who decide.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258854366964329334noreply@blogger.com