tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post3394492397043105603..comments2023-12-24T13:03:35.696+00:00Comments on Miserable Old Fart: Plaid welcomes a Billion Pound Drain from Wales!Alwyn ap Huwhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06194724336424525283noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-707108552653014992009-07-28T09:16:20.689+01:002009-07-28T09:16:20.689+01:00Draig: £250 m that the Assembly doesn't have -...Draig: £250 m that the Assembly doesn't have - we are facing cuts of £2bn between now and 2014! I am in favour of Tad Deiniol's plan - even extending it a bit to fill the gaps between Blaenau Ffestiniog and Porthmadog, Blaenau and Bala, and a fw other gaps. I'd also like to see a longer term connection between Bangor and Pwllheli, and Aberystwyth and Fishguard, although these involve rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-65060758186903265082009-07-27T23:42:59.874+01:002009-07-27T23:42:59.874+01:00Rhydian,
To try and infer that I'm suggestin...Rhydian,<br /><br /> To try and infer that I'm suggesting one part of Wales just trade with itself is twisting what I'm trying to say. I am simply talking about a more integrated Welsh economy. We are probably the only country in Europe that does not have such unity. Even partitioned Ireland probably has greater integration, with easy access from Dublin to Belfast to travel and shop. <br Draighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01816626923689138393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-43886810309469040072009-07-27T16:31:18.143+01:002009-07-27T16:31:18.143+01:00Draig: I questioned the basis and said that the id...Draig: I questioned the basis and said that the idea of the north and south trading was ridiculous. Which it is. If I used the words "no basis", I apologize - I should have said no real basis. There may be some demand, but by no stretch of the imagination is there enough. This means that there is no realistic basis for trade, unless you are suggesting that Wales get itself into debt or rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-44367911667933626332009-07-27T14:17:57.402+01:002009-07-27T14:17:57.402+01:00Rhydian,
The fact of the matter is that you stat...Rhydian,<br /><br /> The fact of the matter is that you stated that there is "No" basis for trade between North and South Wales, which is an incredible statement to make. And also a blanket statement with not a shred of evidence to support it. If you don't like people questioning your nationalism, then maybe you should refrain from making statements that play right into the hands ofDraighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01816626923689138393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-55614681855751898172009-07-27T13:30:50.665+01:002009-07-27T13:30:50.665+01:00I'm not sure I have much more to say than othe...I'm not sure I have much more to say than others have already said on this subject, so I'll just reiterate what I've said on Syniadau about this being a good decision.<br /><br />My reasons are primarily environmental. It is high time that all lines of this sort were electrified. That applies whether they run from Wales to London, or Sheffield to London or anywhere else. <br /><br MHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09329059309196746446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-22732857053806248432009-07-26T18:19:41.811+01:002009-07-26T18:19:41.811+01:00CotR is Nerys, I'm pretty sure. But point take...CotR is Nerys, I'm pretty sure. But point taken there. There is more we could do - CotR barely has any profile in Wales. What are your ideas, on this and generally? I am genuinely interested.<br /><br />On the market, I'l have a look for a few papers and post the titles on this blog if you want - I know I've read a few over the past years. You are right of course - Welsh products are rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-51895160000599987632009-07-26T14:34:54.837+01:002009-07-26T14:34:54.837+01:00A good post Alwyn and a good question! It should a...A good post Alwyn and a good question! It should also not be foergotten that the international Bacclauriate (sp) decided to move their headquarters from Cardiff to Amsterdam because Cardiff was to remote and transport links were poor. That may seem to contradict your assertion but not really! electrification is not the only thing needed! its all Wales!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-22082897599205316422009-07-26T14:05:31.471+01:002009-07-26T14:05:31.471+01:00Rhydian. Ah the joys of Marxian dialectic: thesis,...Rhydian. Ah the joys of Marxian dialectic: thesis, antithesis, synthesis! Thanks to MOF for raising this whole thing. Maybe the internet can set us free. You wouldn't get this in Llais y Sais.<br /><br />I would like to see current evidence of your market analysis, which takes us back to links of all kinds. Surely, Wales is in a common European market, e.g. Welsh lamb; all our cockles go to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-56667275477015302702009-07-26T12:36:02.168+01:002009-07-26T12:36:02.168+01:00Anon: I can agree with most of that, except the Br...Anon: I can agree with most of that, except the British bubble bit. You are arguing for a change in the orientation of our economy. My point is that this is easier said than done.<br /><br />England is a market of 40 million+ over Offa's Dyke - Ireland is a market of 4 million with a sea in between and Scotland means passing through England, whilst mainland Europe can't be our primary rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-64586389484534782542009-07-26T12:01:36.857+01:002009-07-26T12:01:36.857+01:00This string has generated a real debate about stra...This string has generated a real debate about strategic issues facing the independence movement. Many truths have been revealed, which is good.<br /><br />As I've poster earlier, Plaid urgently needs to get out of the British bubble it is currently locked into, thus my snide 'Little Britain' comment. The other dangers for the party are IWJ's excessive managerialist approach to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-7503078285197861602009-07-26T11:19:24.600+01:002009-07-26T11:19:24.600+01:00For an explanation of how the railway system in Wa...For an explanation of how the railway system in Wales was built through market demand, see blogmenai.<br /><br />Yes, Wales has suffered; so has Ireland and Scotland. Yet Ireland is a succesful independent nation, and Scotland is well on the way to becoming one. The union may have damaged us, but it seems futile to seek to assign new imaginary crimes to the list.<br /><br />I not that your post rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-25066109693679292682009-07-26T02:43:20.980+01:002009-07-26T02:43:20.980+01:00No Rhydian, I have not questioned your nationalism...No Rhydian, I have not questioned your nationalism. What I have questioned is the nationalist rational in glorifying a billion pound electrification process on a railway out of Wales, when that billion pounds could be better spent (from a nationalist perspective) on improving links within Wales. <br />In all the times that I have crossed swords with you I have never called you a "crackpot&Alwyn ap Huwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06194724336424525283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-56814884507183080922009-07-25T22:56:18.250+01:002009-07-25T22:56:18.250+01:00I think it was you who questioned my nationalism i...I think it was you who questioned my nationalism in the first place. The way I see it, that is the height of rudeness.<br /><br />You are persisting in your desire to see Wales as the victim. The fact is that demand can't be created at the flick of a switch, no matter how much money you spend on it. That is why I advocate taking a slower approach to a north-south link. The Swansea-London linkrhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-42505496198631180732009-07-25T21:29:25.475+01:002009-07-25T21:29:25.475+01:00Rhydian as I mentioned on my other blog yesterday ...Rhydian as I mentioned on my other blog yesterday there is no need to be rude when you find yourself losing an argument.<br /><br />As to being righteous and not facing facts, I am afraid that seems to be your problem you try to refute historical and political facts because they dont fit into your loyalty to party spin about the electrification of the south Wales line.<br /><br />If Plaid thinks Alwyn ap Huwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06194724336424525283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-82834401548985618632009-07-25T20:12:36.496+01:002009-07-25T20:12:36.496+01:00Why would it be better Alwyn? Where is the advanta...Why would it be better Alwyn? Where is the advantage in Cardiff getting the money at the expense of north Wales rather than London? Surely that is just repeating the whole problem of the United Kingdom in an independent Wales? Surely it is more sensible to plan an economic geography where each part of Wales benefits economically from independence? But no you say, Cardiff is in Wales ergo money rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-90625915909598389792009-07-25T19:42:13.753+01:002009-07-25T19:42:13.753+01:00Rhydian you are peddling an unionist myth, by stat...Rhydian you are peddling an unionist myth, by stating that the roads in Wales run East to West for geographical reasons. They run that way for political reasons. They were built to link Wales and Ireland to the heart of the British Empire. There were plenty of geographical restraints in developing these routs too, but they were overcome by groundbreaking feats of Engineering such as the Menai andAlwyn ap Huwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06194724336424525283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-45578043399436914952009-07-25T16:39:28.414+01:002009-07-25T16:39:28.414+01:00Draig: It is interesting that both you and Alwyn s...Draig: It is interesting that both you and Alwyn seek to question my nationalism rather than making sound arguments.<br /><br />You seem to be ignoring the point here. The economy of North Wales serves a function servicing the wider economy of the North of England, in the same way as Suth Wales serves a similar role within London's orbit. I look forward to seeing Wales as a powerful national rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-83443408899270742632009-07-25T13:20:37.365+01:002009-07-25T13:20:37.365+01:00I have to say that I find myself in complete agree...I have to say that I find myself in complete agreement with Alwyn here. I find it amazing that so-called "Nationalists" (in reality, regionalists) can argue that there is no economic basis for a unified Welsh economy, and that we will somehow derive benefit from being "closer" to London. <br /><br /> The idea that there is, for example, no demand in north wales (and therefore Draighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01816626923689138393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-4566615520306567952009-07-25T03:06:21.775+01:002009-07-25T03:06:21.775+01:00There are so many comments, I apologise for not be...There are so many comments, I apologise for not being able to respond to each and every one of them.<br /><br />A general thread amongst those who disagree with me is that criticising the rail link is somehow isolationist. But that argument doesn’t hold water. <br /><br />To avoid isolation a country needs secondary links to places outwith its borders, links which are an addition to its primary Alwyn ap Huwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06194724336424525283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-84771542830417896002009-07-24T23:20:39.110+01:002009-07-24T23:20:39.110+01:00Draig: I am not arguing that there is an equal tra...Draig: I am not arguing that there is an equal trading partnership to London. What I'm saying is that South Wales- London is in an equilibrium - shortening the journey by 19 minutes won't move much wealth towards London, but it might help Cardiff and Swansea to be that bit closer. On the other hand, a new North-South link will shift wealth to the South by substantially cutting journey rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-72991870732258607202009-07-24T21:54:30.287+01:002009-07-24T21:54:30.287+01:00Oh, and while were at it:
1) Brit government'...Oh, and while were at it:<br /><br />1) Brit government's timetable for completion of the electrification programme - 2020.<br /><br />2) Brit government's timetable for completion of the Severn Barrage - 2020.<br /><br />Neatly solves the problem of getting through the wet Severn tunnel. Run it over the Severn Barrage. Links us more tightly into the South-West of England. All with the Draighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01816626923689138393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-83308390152400046672009-07-24T21:31:36.844+01:002009-07-24T21:31:36.844+01:00"rhydian fôn said...
Alwyn,
Anon above mak..."rhydian fôn said... <br /><br />Alwyn,<br /><br />Anon above makes a good point. Wales must trade with England to be succesfully independent, and better communication links will make that happen to a greater degree.<br /><br />There is the risk of the drain you speak of. But Swansea already has excellent links to London via Cardiff - 19 minutes faster on a train won't make a world of Draighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01816626923689138393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-80051921223037023252009-07-24T17:49:54.954+01:002009-07-24T17:49:54.954+01:00Anon: I did not say that London was the world'...Anon: I did not say that London was the world's financial centre - that was Ryan - but the fact is that is more important than any other city in Europe. It is also closer to us than anywhere else. Why should anybody else want to travel through London? Please visit Westminster - tell them of your plans to link to Europe bypassing London. You think you'll get anywhere this side of never? rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-58042585512047174292009-07-24T17:11:08.983+01:002009-07-24T17:11:08.983+01:00Rhydian and Ryan are getting dangerously near my e...Rhydian and Ryan are getting dangerously near my exaggerated stereotype with the words they are using. I am more concerned than when I started. OK, London is on the same island but that implies an insular British world; mine is European and global in which all links matter.<br /><br />Rhydian, please don't use the divisive, British "South Wales and "North Wales"! For heaven'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8120478390983403863.post-69634637226285031462009-07-24T16:34:02.857+01:002009-07-24T16:34:02.857+01:00Thank you Anon 16:19. Yes, Wales will continue as ...Thank you Anon 16:19. Yes, Wales will continue as an extractive economy. I'm not saying that the extractive economy of the past was ideal, but <br />there are now huge economic forces keeping it that way.<br /><br /><br />Changing the extractive economy is only possible as a long-term aim. The upside (?) for us is that Wales now has little easily extracted mineral resources, due to past rhydian fônnoreply@blogger.com