It is no secret that my ideas of centre right Welsh Nationalism are directly opposed to Leanne Wood's Socialism and Republicanism.
As I have repeated ad-nausium on this blog socialism is dependent on the state, the state on which Wales now depends is the British state; until we throw off the shackles of state control Wales can never be free!
Republicanism is a British obsession. An independent Wales will have no royal family! Republicanism is not a Welsh Nationalist issue!
Leanne and I are not in tune re socialism and republicanism, but there is an issue where Leanne and I are in four square agreement and that is on the issue of the Welsh Language and Welsh Culture.
Despite the Western Mails bollocks comment: The fact that she is not a Welsh speaker would be an enormous advantage in dispelling the still widely held view that Plaid is essentially a party for Welsh speakers. I can guarantee that Leanne can and does speak Welsh - I have never conversed with her in English!
And I can assure all cultural nationalists that Leanne's love and support of our culture is genuine and heartfelt.
This is not an endorsement – just a statement of fact!
Leadership election first choice: Leanne, second choice: leave the party
ReplyDeleteThe original post is so politically ignorant that i almost overlooked the endorsement of the best candidate.
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings about Leanne Wood - but then again I have about all of the Plaid candidates. No that is not true - DET would be a disaster - no mixed feelings there.
ReplyDeleteI dont like Leanne's dungaree wearing social worker image - but I share her positive attitude towards independence and cultural nationalism. She is the only one of the curent crop of candidates that could lead a breakthrough in the Valleys - which is where Plaid must win if they are to form a future government.
Penddu
Just a quickie. You say:
ReplyDelete"Republicanism is a British obsession. An independent Wales will have no royal family! Republicanism is not a Welsh Nationalist issue!"
How do you square that with the SNP's policy of maintaining the Royal family as the head of their state a la other commonwealth states?
Any prosbective independent Welsh Government would have to have a policy on the position of the Royal family prior to independence, whether we like it or not.
Scottish attitudes to the monarchy are coloured by its different history and relationship with England. James VI becoming James I of England in 1603; the fact that the current monarch is Elizabeth I in Scotland.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why many Scots see independence as the dissolving of a partnership between equals that no longer works. Something along the lines of the Czechs and the Slovaks going their separate ways.
Our historical relationship with England is entirely different. We were incorporated into England and ceased to exist as a separate entity until fairly recent times.
Consequently we nationalists are not seeking to escape a failed marriage and regain a lost independence but rather achieve something our ancestors never knew - a unified and independent Wales.
The fact that we lack so many of the institutions of statehood that the Scots retained after the Union of 1707 makes independence more radical a step for our people.
That is a very good synopsis of the current predicament and why Welsh independence is a much more radical prospect, and exciting, than Scottish independence.
DeleteThat is a very good synopsis of the current predicament and why Welsh independence is a much more radical prospect, and exciting, than Scottish independence.
DeleteJac - So what would independence look like?
ReplyDeleteI have no doubt that should Leanne be Plaid leader and 'snubs' the Queen during the jubilee year on her visit to Wales, she and Plaid will get more hours of broadcast television in Wales and throughout the UK and the world. Expect her to be star attraction. I do not think this will be detrimental to Plaid. It will put Welsh nationalism on the map, which currently falls below the radar. Such attention will put Plaid at centre stage of the constitutional situation in the UK. I actually think it's something that Plaid needs, regardless of any future the constitutional settlement. It will provide Plaid with a political platform. Go for it Leanne !!
ReplyDelete"The original post is so politically ignorant that i almost overlooked the endorsement of the best candidate."
ReplyDeleteIt would help if you explained why the post was politically ignorant.
"I have no doubt that should Leanne be Plaid leader and 'snubs' the Queen during the jubilee year on her visit to Wales, she and Plaid will get more hours of broadcast television in Wales and throughout the UK and the world"
ReplyDeleteExactly. She'll draw a lot more attention to Plaid than the greyness of IWJ. The Labour party is in terminal decline and if Plaid can severely wound the Labour party in the valleys then Labour will have no option but to become more nationalist...
I don't really care that Leanne is seen as the darling of the left, the important thing for me is that she's solid on independence, solid on the language, a good communicator, looks the part on TV, holds her own on Question Time etc. and has the potential to win new ground for Plaid outside the traditional heartlands.
ReplyDeleteNo other candidate comes close to offering this combination of skills.
annon 10:44 The original post is so politically ignorant that i almost overlooked the endorsement of the best candidate.
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome to dismiss my comments as "politically ignorant", but debate would be enhanced if you explained why you believe them to be so rather than just making a sweeping statement. There is no endorsement for Leanne in the post, incidentally, just a response to snide, untrue and unfair remarks made about her by "Labour sources" in the Western Mail. If I had a vote I would probably vote for Elin.
Penddu I share your misgivings about Leanne, I do fear that her "hard" image could be off-putting in some of the areas where Plaid already has seats. Having said that her image is also one of a person with genuine convictions who says what she believes and beggar the consequences, rather than a person who says what she thinks might be pleasing and popular. That sort of honesty is always welcome in politics and given that Plaid has been seen as a bit wobbly and uncertain of its beliefs in the past few years a leader with her honest convictions might be a boon to the party's image.
Anon 11:48, Jac has answered your question about why British republicanism is an irrelevance to Welsh Nationalism. Queen Elizabeth is not and has never claimed to be Queen of Wales, she is our Queen by virtue of Wales' incorporation into the Kingdom of England. If the seniority of Welsh Royalty was chosen by primogeniture (which was never the case) our current Royal Family would be the family of horse racing jockey Peter Scudamore. As even those of us who claim to be conservative nationalists don't support any claim to the throne of Wales by King Peter republicanism is an irrelevance in a Welsh nationalist context.
mairede thomas. Independence is not a complicated concept, as they say on Pointless "by a country we mean a state that is a full member of the United Nations" - that is a simple definition of independence.
Anon 18:59 I agree entirely with your comments. Even though "Snubbing the Queen" might alienate some voters it would still draw attention to the party, and one of the biggest problems that Plaid has at the moment is being unnoticed.
Anon - How do you square that with the SNP's policy of maintaining the Royal family as the head of their state a la other commonwealth states?
ReplyDeleteThe SNP have said that an independent Scotland would hold a referendum on this issue. So just like the pound, the euro and most importantly independence the Scottish voters will decide what they want their country to do.
Is being Welsh somewhat akin to being black, always feeling like a persecuted minority?
ReplyDeleteReading these comments above it would seem there are many similarities. And I should know, I am gay and black.
Maybe I should move to Wales.
You could be the only black gay in the village...
ReplyDeleteAlwyn, If Leanne upsets some ofthe voters in their current heartlands, it would be more than offset by new supporters in new areas. There are only 6-8 potentially winnable seats in the heartlands - there are around 12 in the Valleys
ReplyDeletePenddu
Wood is the only realistic choice if Plaid want to make any electoral gains in the near future.
ReplyDelete"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIs being Welsh somewhat akin to being black, always feeling like a persecuted minority?
Reading these comments above it would seem there are many similarities. And I should know, I am gay and black.
Maybe I should move to Wales. "
If you thought being Welsh resulted in discrimination, why would you as a black person want to move to Wales? Of course, the answer is that you're simply stirring.
The "Welsh" cause is generally about the national status of Wales as a country, and also linguistic rights. It is not about equating anything to racism or homophobia. In fact Welsh nationalists were prominent in showing solidarity with the civil rights movement in America and the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa, two campaigns which had a relatively significant impact on Wales' political history. Why would we claim we faced the same specific problems as black people or gay people? Of course, there are also many Welsh nationalists who are black, and many Welsh nationalists who are gay. These crude attempts to downplay Wales' historic experience should be rejected everywhere they appear, even if it is in anonymous blog comments.
Can I add that on republicanism Leanne Wood could simply say she supports putting the question in the future to the people of Wales, being honest that she would vote against in such a situation. Her best strategy would be to play down the monarchy's relevance. She could do that by changing her tactics without ditching her principles. Plaid simply isn't a republican party and to change the party policy there would need to be a democratic decision. The party leader doesn't have any powers to force that through without getting a vote in favour at the appropriate conferences, after a full debate.
ReplyDeleteAnti-devolution Tories have been able to adapt without ditching their principles (see David Davies). Plaid needs to show the same tactical flexibility as the Tories.
The SNP example isn't a direct comparison because in Scotland the monarchy is separate. But the idea of pragmatism and choosing which battles are worth fighting is relevant.
What would be less appealing would be Plaid suddenly going to extremes and pretending the monarchy is all well and good. Politics should be about trying to change things, not going with the flow.
I have no truck with Germanic/Greek royals at all, Did we not find a direct descendant of the Princes of Wales up North ? so why aren't they in Cardiff castle.... if we have to wave flags at royals wave at our own.
ReplyDeleteOther countries in the Commonwealth have the queen as head of state and it harldy affects their independence. But if you were devising a form of government from scratch you probably wouldn't choose a monarchy.
ReplyDeleteNewly independent states in the nineteenth century, Romania, Belgium and Greece went round looking for monarchs.It's not necessary now.
We could take the line of least resistance and keep the current queen or her heirs. Some would object that they are descended from Edward i but so are about one in five people in the UK today.
Leanne would not favour that. If you really support equality for all it seems contradictory to accept this degree of privilege. All that can be said is that it would require the least effort.
Marianne Y Fenni