One of the reasons for my Love / Hate attitude towards Plaid Cymru is Plaid's ambivalence about the I word!
I support INDEPENDENCE for Wales unequivocally. Plaid, at times has appeared rather uncertain about independence claiming that it has "never ever" been a party aim, perhaps a long term desire, something that may happen a long time after all current party voters are dead and buried etc.
I was pleased, therefore, to see that Elfyn Llwyd, who has often been as ambivalent as others on the I issue has stated that he will see Wales independent in his lifetime.
Elfyn is a few years older than I am, so Elfyn's statement is the first time EVER that I have heard a Plaid Politician predicting that I could live in an independent Wales!
Diolch Elfyn
You and Plaid might want independence and I would not mind it if you can tell me how we get the £15 billion given to us as part of the agreement from England, it's a lot of money to find and the EU is not going to go near that amount.
ReplyDeletesadly as we all know Wales is made up of a lot difference nationalities these days and to vote for Independence will be difficult and it's back to where Plaid was seen before as being the party of welsh speakers, now it's independence.
What you need is a party in power who wins elections not has battles over who is in third place.
To be honest, I'd like to start from scratch. I'm not too fond of this island, can't we Welsh just up sticks and form a Cymru Newydd on some uninhabited island? Perhaps Britain and Argentina could do a deal whereby Wales gets Patagonia and Argentina get the Falklands? ;)
ReplyDeleteToo many English in our country for us to ever be independent. The truly Welsh areas are way more patriotic than Ireland/Scotland but we are drowned out by the masses of English people in our country.
ReplyDeleteRobert, you mention "the £15 billion given to us as part of the agreement from England". Did you not know that people in Wales also pay taxes? Not as much as we get through the Formula, I agree, but your statement completely ignores that we pay a substantial amount towards that £15 billion. Apparently, we're something like £6 billion short. Some experts have valued the water currently going from Wales to England at £4.1 billion (which is likely to increase). And if you take out the amount Wales woudln't need to spend on nuclear arms, defence, and wars, it's pretty close to even.
ReplyDeleteRemind me again why should we be happy to remain in a union that has resulted in us being one of the poorest regions in Europe, while London is ond of the richest cities in the world?
Iwan Rhys
How would independence actually work - would there be a referendum in Wales? Also, what currency? The euro, pound or a new currency all together?
ReplyDeleteObviously there would be referendum. We'd stick with the same currency (whichever it was at the time) in the immediate future and could think about that later. It's up to the people of Wales, not something to all be decided in advance.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the comments that if we ever we had a referendum on independence it would fail because of the amount of English immigrants who would vote against it. The question must be asked should colonialists be allowed to vote on such an important issue or should those immigrants wishing to vote swear allegiance to Cymru and become a citizen first?
ReplyDeleteMy view is Cymru is already ours, why risk losing her on a referendum to the colonialists?
When is a colonist a colonist, when is an immigrant an immigrant?
ReplyDeleteWe love to dream about Independence, and Elfyn Llwyd is a great dreamer, he lives in a fantasy world, the Plaid Clowns have create this little fantasy as a means to distract the people from the real problems we face. Independence in his lifetime, is a joke, let's see if he can find some jobs for people first, instead of living in a dream world he should see hwat it's like in the real world. Plaid the party of tossers!
ReplyDeleteIt's not just the "Colonists" you know; Wales has had people who settled here for generations. In South Wales they become integrated and in East Wales they tend to consider themselves to be in a slightly ideosyncratic area of England. When they settle in the Welsh speaking areas they are treated as unwelcome foreigners to a certain extent and the language stops them from being "Welsh". This effects one generation after another so that their original English identity remains even when they are born and brought up in the Welshest part of Wales.
ReplyDeletePlaid supporters perpetually makes the mistake of alienating groups of voters with sometimes casual, dismissive bigotry (see the Informer above). To win the country you have to form a bond with ALL the people in it..It's no use crying that some of them shouldn't be here!
Where is the evidence that Plaid's message of "Independence in our time" has been accepted at the ballot box in the local elections?
I agree with Elfyn Llwyd. It's a matter of time. It may or may not happen in my lifetime - I'm older than Elfyn.
ReplyDeleteUndoubtedly greater constitutional changes are coming Wales' way, whether we like it or not, and they won't be driven by Plaid as such either, in my opinion. Cracks have already appeared in the UK's make-up. As a nation state it isn't functioning on many levels. It has been in decline, and that process is accelerating. It won't last forever.
If, for example, the Scots vote Yes in 2014, that will convert many supporters of Labour in Wales into true nationalists overnight and they will demand greater power for our nation. Carwyn Jones has already woken up to that possibility. If the Scots vote No, but get far greater powers for their Parliament, Devo Plus, Max or Home Rule, that too will inevitably affect Wales, primarily because of the effect it will have on England. Its population will demand the same powers and a parliament of their own, thus creating a federation, of which Wales will be a member. In all honesty, I can't see a federal UK lasting very long, because of the huge tensions which will arise over foreign policy and defence, issues such as the nuclear deterrent, distant conflicts and wars etc, and their massive economic and social costs.
Taking a long view of history, the UK is past its sell-by-date. Home Rule movements took shape in the second half of the nineteenth century in Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Most of Ireland exited in 1922, and demographically its only a matter of time before the remainder joins it. Devolution is evidence of that. Scotland will either follow, or have one foot out of the UK for a period, before it too goes.
Iwan Rhys is correct in pointing out the limits of the fiscal transfers from the UK treasury (NOT from England) to Wales. With regional pay (and the inevitable regional benefits and pensions which will follow) the fiscal deficit will decrease, as Wales gets even poorer, so the economic arguments for remaining impoverished within the UK, governed from London, will diminish.
I don't know about the value of Wales' water to England, but it must be significant, for the GoWA 2006 to specifically exclude Welsh Government power over it. It's an example of the current exploitation of Wales - there are many more in our past - it's a visible sign of colonisation, for that is what wales is today - a colony. If Waales is such a burden to 'England', then why is the London Government, the unionist parties, the UK establishment, the press and the media, all primarily 'English', against the idea?
There have been waves of immigrants into Wales down the centuries. Hundreds of thousands have been assimilated in the Valleys alone, and consider themselves Welsh today. There is no way to discriminate, and I think it would be foolish to even try. It's a non-starter.
The only thing that saddens me is that many of us here have a low opinion of ourselves and of our nation. All over the world people are proud enough of their country to stand up for it against all comers. We look set to have constitutional changes during the next decade or two which we will have little control over. The Scots are setting the agenda for Wales - WE should be setting the agenda here!
We sing a song in Wales where we ask to be fed until we want no more.
ReplyDeleteWe've had devolution, we wanted more.
We've had primary law making powers, BBC and ITV polls show we want more.
We're taking gradual steps, in Scotlad where they actually have a proper national party that knows fully well that Labour is the enemy they are running towards independence.
We'll get there in the end. I just wish Plaid would sort their party out and make themselves into a party that I woudl want to join.
Plaid Cymru's legacy is simple, nothing, their agenda is simple, it doesn't exist, sometimes it's written on the back of a packet of fags, sometimes it's in song sheets, but in real terms, and in the real world, Plaid Cymru, should just go into a nice little care home, live on a diet of crap and die in it's sleep. It's what Plaid Cymru have tried to feed us all on for years and what has it got us? Nothing, only half witted political clowns bleating on like half witted lambs about Independence, it will never happen, we can't survive on a Political System in Cardiff that exists to make sure that the elected get their snouts in the trough while those in work struggle and the unemployed find themselves totally immersed in the poverty abyss. Independence, never, Plaid Cymru can't run a bath, never mind run our Wales.
ReplyDelete"Plaid supporters perpetually makes the mistake of alienating groups of voters with sometimes casual, dismissive bigotry (see the Informer above). "
ReplyDeleteThe Informer doesn't support Plaid.
the Informer is sadly rather mistaken that Wales is full of colonialists, it's full of people who have chosen to live here. I couldn't afford to buy a house in England and didn't want to live in my native Scotland (too cold and dark :wink:) So we moved here 38 years ago and we still love it here even though our kids have moved away.
ReplyDeleteCymru am byth ;-)