Since I started blogging some 5 years ago I have crossed swords with the likes of John the Stonemason, Adam Higgitt aka Normal Mouth; O'Neil and Kezia Duggdale, and have suffered trolling comments from the infamous KP.
It would be easy to think of these as the anti nationalists; as the enemy – people who deserved to be shouted down, kicked in the tender parts and ridiculed. They are not our enemy, they are almost our best friends. They are the people with whom we can argue the national cause, people who are interested in the concept of nationalism, despite opposing it.
In Wales, the problem that nationalist face isn't opposition to nationalism; it's just downright indifference to nationalism!
The vast majority of Welsh people belong to the "don't care – couldn't care less" spectrum as far as the national cause is concerned, it is they; not those who have thought about nationalism and decided to oppose it, who are the real challenge.
Whether we see the future of the national cause as one of reinvigorating Plaid Cymru or one of creating new nationalist movements (or a bit of both) - to succeed we must realise that those who are opposed to the national cause are not the problem; fellow nationalists with whom we have differences are absolutely not the problem; the problem is indifference and apathy.
Our main task isn't one of opposing Unionism or pissing off other nationalist (despite the fact that doing so is fun). Our main task should be one of enthusing the uncommitted into support for the National Cause
The real problem is demographic change. The simple fact that the majority of people in Wales will not consider themselves Welsh.
ReplyDeleteDemographic change is one of the issues that too many Welsh people feel indifferent about!
ReplyDeleteI'm no longer a stonemason Alwyn, nearing retirement I decided to preserve my back.
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with your observations, I would like to add that I believe there can only be one valid reason for separation, a reasonable expectation of a better and well defined future, the message in Scotland is "little will change though we (Scots) will make our own decisions, it's our right", its difficult to argue that proposition.
I predict Scotland will become independent in 2014 or a decade or so later, it's a certainty, the Union are unable to counter Salmond's arguments, and if you examine history, the people were not in favour of the Union when it occurred.
Wales is different in two distinctive aspects, geography divides the people, we look East to West before North to South, and although there was a brief insurrection we integrated with England and more importantly with the economics of the urban development in England, the politics were not so important as the markets for our agriculture.
For the future, nationalism in Wales currently has no message to stir the blood of our youngsters playing "Call of Duty" on their x-box ...
Could the Scots message be adapted for Wales (some say the Scots borrowed the message from Plaid Cymru), the answer to that resides at Cardiff Bay, do you trust them ....
I think it is more likely that a good number of people see (Welsh) nationalism as an irrelevance. They accept that someone, somewhere in authority has decided to introduce bilingual roadsigns which they may or may not understand and they get patriotic when the anthem plays at the Millennium stadium. For many, I suspect that a recognition of 'nationalism' is embodied in the Welsh Assembly and the ability to enjoy certain free services - although not necessarily better ones - compared to England. Substituting 'patriotism' for 'nationalism' however is a different thing entirely.
ReplyDeleteI agree Alwyn. Those strongly opposed to devolution and statehood for Wales are possibly the best "sounding board" going for developing and popularising the arguments in favour of full self-government, if only because the status quo they seek to defend has left our country so economically weakened and anglicised. By all means, go ahead and loudly defend the indefensible!
ReplyDeleteAs for directly countering the political apathy of the Welsh towards their nation, I sometimes think being faced with a very stark choice is the best hope. Something along the lines of; take full responsibility for your own affairs like a normal country, or lose your claim to nationhood altogether (is there anything more tiring than Englandandwales? England is so much simpler).
If Alex Salmond has his way in 2014, could we then be effectively faced with such a choice? Part of me hopes so - then we'll find out how "proud" the Welsh really are.
I agree Neilyn, I'd be all up for an "independence or bust" type referendum. If we lost that, then our nation deserves to die or be partitioned at the very least.
ReplyDeleteThought provoking post Alwyn
ReplyDeleteAn 'in or out' referendum would produce the status quo.
I can’t think of a more politically apathetic bunch than us Welsh, even the most politically engaged argue about which bald man gets to keep the comb, the Welsh get militant over the language nothing else, exactly the reason why both sides continually use it to frame arguments over the future of the country.
I agree with the stark choice proposition. I think this would be a good question for the apathetic. Is it Wales or England? If you choose England then you accept all that comes and goes with that. If Wales then you should feel empowered to defend your Welshness within the structure of a "for Wales" system. I think some Welsh people have had a false sense of security with the concept of nationhood somehow protecting them, while the nation is dismantled around them. At least if you give it away it will be because you want it to go. Then there is no pretence unlike when someone takes something off you and you pretend you don't care because you feel powerless to do anything about it. Either this or partake in rebuilding a functioning nation.
ReplyDelete"the Welsh get militant over the language nothing else"
ReplyDeleteCall me old-fashioned/unreconstructed but all Welshness is related to language. The people from the western/central Valleys feel Welsh because they are mostly descended from Welsh-speaking people and those communities were Welsh-speaking until the early 20th century.
If all Welsh institutions disappeared tomorrow the people of Gwynedd would still be as Welsh as ever - the same can't be said for the people of eastern Powys, Flintshire or Monmouth. I'd be happy to see Wales partitioned if it meant freedom for the Welsh and a Welsh-language state.
"I think some Welsh people have had a false sense of security with the concept of nationhood somehow protecting them, while the nation is dismantled around them"
ReplyDeleteBang on the money.
It is very complacent for nationalists to say "go on then, defend the status quo", because actually the argument is that if we changed the status quo to independence, even though the status quo is bad for Wales, independence would be *even worse*. By its very presence the status quo is the norm, it's reassuring and safe and changing it would mean disruption. In Scotland independence is basically devo-full.
ReplyDeleteI'm a nationalist but i'll be devil's advocate and defend it right now, from a slightly enlightened position.
"Okay, the Union is not perfect and is geared towards the south-east of England. But Wales gets a share of that wealth through the Barnett formula. Yes it should be on a needs-basis and Wales has been short changed compared to Scotland. So Wales actually needs even more money than it gets. Yes Wales is a nation but because of the closure of heavy industry we basically don't have an economy."
Perhaps what i've written above is slightly wrong. But good luck convincing the people of Wales it is wrong.
The old adage that "if you aren't a Welsh nationalist you're a British nationalist" is not effective either. It may well be true but people that support Britain often don't class themselves as unionists or British nationalists, and engaging them on those terms won't make them suddenly think "whoa i'm wrong". Majority of people support the union just because it's there and it seems normal. They wouldn't necessarily support a union between France and Germany or a union between the Benelux countries or even the European Union. They aren't all unionists in the sense that they see it as worth defending, it's just that most people don't see the case for radical change.
ReplyDeleteIf the Scots say aye in 2014, and Wales 'grudgingly' prepares for a referendum within, say, 6 years of that date following political disagreements and a heated public debate on the place of Wales in the 'reconstituted rump UK', could the existence of our separate national football and rugby associations be under threat if we were to say, no thanks, we'll stick with England? To be frank, I'd have some sympathy with FIFA and the IRB if they took the view that the Welsh were an international sporting anachronism whose time was at end.
ReplyDeleteWhat price "pride" in sporting prowess when our economy, our health and our very cohesion as a nation and linguistic group is on the slide to oblivion?
Totally agree Neilyn. Wales wouldn't have any more right to an international football/rugby team than Yorkshire, Leinster or Orkney.
ReplyDelete"Something along the lines of; take full responsibility for your own affairs like a normal country, or lose your claim to nationhood altogether (is there anything more tiring than Englandandwales? England is so much simpler).
ReplyDeleteIf Alex Salmond has his way in 2014, could we then be effectively faced with such a choice? Part of me hopes so - then we'll find out how "proud" the Welsh really are."
This is an interesting scenario but why or how would it happen? Who would possibly deliver a referendum for Wales saying "become independent or stop beign a nation"? How would that work electorally?
To hold such a referendum a party with it in their manifesto would have to win in elections.
I also don't agree with "Totally agree Neilyn. Wales wouldn't have any more right to an international football/rugby team than Yorkshire, Leinster or Orkney."
This is clumsy. Orkney, Yorkshire, Leinster aren't FIFA members but the Faroe Islands, Hong Kong, Puerto Rico, Macau, Palestine (non-independent states) are. FIFA is a nest of vipers and has a particular axe to grind to Britain ironically, but you don't have to be a nation-state to be a member.
I can't see the scenario of "independence or stop being a nation" emerging. It is a good philosophical debate at most.
"I can't see the scenario of "independence or stop being a nation" emerging."
ReplyDeleteI can imagine it being forced onto us by the English if Scotland says 'Yes'. There would be a drive in England to create a new unified, culturally English identity in response to the multiculturalist dogma we've seen in recent years. Given the choice between independence and complete integration, we'd probably lose out :(
"I can imagine it being forced onto us by the English if Scotland says 'Yes'. There would be a drive in England to create a new unified, culturally English identity in response to the multiculturalist dogma we've seen in recent years. Given the choice between independence and complete integration, we'd probably lose out :("
ReplyDeleteHow can you imagine this? What political forces in England, capable of winning the 2015 England and Wales Westminster Election, would force this on Wales and what would it possibly achieve?
This is completely ignorant and is not a reflection of the real situation facing Wales after the UK ceases to exist.
With the amount of English colonialists pouring across our border every year we’ll have little chance of winning a referendum on independence, the vast majority of these incomers will always be loyal to England and will not want independence for Wales.
ReplyDeleteWhy must anyone who supports Wales, or welsh, get labelled a nationalist, anti-English, and anti-UK ? It's this insidious drip, drip, drip of digging away that totally undermines. We know many in Cardiff are at the root of it ! Having opposed the Assembly, they quickly changed tack to host it so they can continue to maintain welsh subservience to Westminster and speed off up the M4 to London to get in the trough..
ReplyDelete