It will come as no surprise to regular readers of this blog that my answer to the question how many Westminster MP's does Wales need? is none, nil, zero, zilch, nix etc.
Since the 1930's Wales has always been at the bottom of the list of every economic and social indicator. The reasons for this are quite simple. When times are bad the London economy, being the powerhouse of Great Britain, needs shoring up. As Eddie George admitted in the 1980's allowing other parts of the UK to suffer in order to support the London economy is a price worth paying. When times get better the last places to benefit from recovery are places like Wales and Cornwall, but because of economic cycles when Wales starts to recover London goes into another economic downturn and Wales is smacked in the teeth again, in order to save London.
Gordon Brown promised the end of Boom and Bust, the truth is, that as part of the UK, Wales has never had a Boom and Bust problem; being part of the UK has made us suffer from a Bust and Bust again economy for the past eighty years.
Edward VIII, as Prince of Wales, memorably said Something must be done, as he observed the grinding poverty and desperate queues of the unemployed in south Wales during the 1930's. The fact is that sod all has been done to change Wales since those days, and sod all will be be done unless and until Wales has control over its own economy and it's own destiny as an independent nation!
Alwyn,
ReplyDeleteThe dogmatism in that post ignores one simple question, why will welsh politicians running wales do any better than UK politician's running the UK?
Lets be clear, you are right to want to promote your viewpoint about you putting forward the moral case for an independent Wales. But trying to make some empirical case, based on the fact that having a government in cardiff instead of london, well, its a bit silly.
STH -
ReplyDelete"The dogmatism in that post ignores one simple question, why will welsh politicians running wales do any better than UK politician's running the UK?"
surely one of the reasons Wales remains at the bottom of all the indicators Alwyn notes is that UK policy is not calibrated with Wales in mind: it is calibrated with the rich south east of England in mind, because essentially it is run with a Labour-Tory neo-conservative consensus.
"Elections are won or lost in the South East of England', said a prominent Labour MP recently, i.e. 'that's where our efforts shoudl nbe directed and our policies aimed at winning votes'. It has always been such. Indeed, this is hardly a nationalist point - Raymond Williams (the great British leftist and cultural historian and Plaid member) argued that the politics and culture of the UK was resoletely southern and upper middle class, and that the North of England had as much to berate it for as Wales and Scotland.
So it seems clear to me that changing the locus of representation would also change the emphasis and direction of policy, hence that being run from Cardiff and not London is more desirable. Certainly it cannot be claimed that Wales has done well out of the current set-up.
Tis isn't a party issue (though it's certainly my Plaid bias talking), because what devolution has done has been -precisely - to help parties (even the Tories, at least on the surface) re-think their relationship to their electorate by rethinking their role in a different seat of government.
Yes, I think it will be better for all those reasons, but in the end, we should also be able, as Ghandi said, to make our own mistakes. At the moment we're deeply under-served (as distinct from represented, because God knows we've got enough bloody "representatives" in govt), and the mistakes we're living with we mostly have no control over.
The Labour party's opposition to devolution has been at best cynical and at worst stupid - turkeys voting for christmas stupid.
DRodway, Cardiff
Since the 1930's Wales has always been at the bottom of the list of every economic and social indicator.
ReplyDeleteAnother way of putting it is that since the 1930s - indeed since much before then - Wales has been far too reliant on extractive industries that are in turn in long term, and now terminal, decline.
How would independence change that?
The reasons for this are quite simple. When times are bad the London economy, being the powerhouse of Great Britain, needs shoring up.
A statement that blithely ignores the fact that the last two recessions have occurred overwhelmingly in the north of England, parts of Scotland and Wales. Indeed, this one may be the first that affects the south east more.
As Eddie George admitted in the 1980's allowing other parts of the UK to suffer in order to support the London economy is a price worth paying.
I do not recall this statement. Perhaps you could cite it? Or have you just made it up?
sod all will be be done unless and until Wales has control over its own economy and it's own destiny as an independent nation!
A typically ignorant comment that presupposes that London and the South East will somehow vanish into thin air upon independence.
In fact is that they'll still be there - the difference will be that the English government will have no remit at all to see that Welsh needs are met.
"A typically ignorant comment that presupposes that London and the South East will somehow vanish into thin air upon independence.
ReplyDeleteIn fact is that they'll still be there - the difference will be that the English government will have no remit at all to see that Welsh needs are met."
WTF?
DR
Anon,
ReplyDeleteFirstly, and much like Alwyn’s ‘eddie george’ comment, your comment from a Labour MP is not qualified, hearsay at best.
Secondly, your complaint around the ‘south east swing seats’ winning elections is surely a question of the voting system, not an issue of independence?
Thirdly, I am a labour supporter, I am passionate devolutionist – I fully support Wales having the same powers as Scotland has currently. Being opposed to the independence Alwyn talks about, particularly with such flimsy qualification, is very different to opposing devolution.
The questions I would ask are this …
If John Major won the 1997 election, would we have devolution in Wales? Yes or no
If Welsh Labour decided to switch to the No campaign, would the referendum be won for a full welsh parliament?
To me Labour’s internal differing positions on further devolution probably best sum the general malaise in public opinion – some for, some warm, some nonplussed, some against. While Welsh MPs are probably motivated by self interest, I would contend the Welsh Labour Party is increasingly pro further devolution.
Why do you hate England?
ReplyDeleteAs Eddie George admitted in the 1980's allowing other parts of the UK to suffer in order to support the London economy is a price worth paying.
ReplyDeleteThere is a typo in this comment, it should have read 1990's. Eddie George, then Governor of the Bank of England made the comments in November. 1998, they were widely reported at the time and probably what the man is best remembered for.
Anon 15/01/09 11:53, neither I or any of the commentators have said that we hate England.
Marcus The dogmatism in that post ignores one simple question, why will welsh politicians running wales do any better than UK politician's running the UK? I never suggested that they would what I said was that Welsh politicians running Wales would do so better than UK politicians running Wales. The reason for this, as DRodway says, is that that UK policy is not calibrated with Wales in mind Welsh politicians running Wales would look at policies calibrated with Wales in mind.
Anon 14/01/09 11:39 A typically ignorant comment that presupposes that London and the South East will somehow vanish into thin air upon independence. In fact is that they'll still be there - the difference will be that the English government will have no remit at all to see that Welsh needs are met.
This really is a silly comment. Saying that if Wales was independent its economy wouldn't be run for the benefit of the south East of England is hardly the same as saying that London would cease to exist! As to the remit "to see that Wales' needs are met" - this isn't happening now. Even if it was the argument that Wales should continue to be governed from London in order to scroung of England must be the worst possible unionist argument going.
But you do hate England and the English. Nats always do. They have monumental chips on their shoulders, symptomatic of a monumental inferiority complex. And they hate England and the English. They are sour, miserable and mean-spirited. And they hate the English.
ReplyDeleteThis really is a silly comment. Saying that if Wales was independent its economy wouldn't be run for the benefit of the south East of England is hardly the same as saying that London would cease to exist! As to the remit "to see that Wales' needs are met" - this isn't happening now. Even if it was the argument that Wales should continue to be governed from London in order to scroung of England must be the worst possible unionist argument going.
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstand my point, which is that the existence of one of Europe's historic motor regions in London and the SE won't change if Wales becomes independent. Indeed the only difference will be that the new English government will have no constraints whatsoever on drawing head office functions, R&D facilities etc into that region and away from Wales, whereas the existence of a strong devolved branch of govt in Wales currently inhibits that, even if not to the extent that you would wish for.
To say that is an argument for Wales scrounging off England really is preposterous.
"But you do hate England and the English. Nats always do. They have monumental chips on their shoulders, symptomatic of a monumental inferiority complex. And they hate England and the English. They are sour, miserable and mean-spirited. And they hate the English."
ReplyDeleteI hate them for making hate necessery.
They give me no choice but to hate them.
They colonised countries, destroyed cultures, and they continue doing that and they persist on clinging on to what's left of their impearialistic dream, in Northen Ireland, Wales and Scotland.
I hate the way they've oppressed countries.
I hate the way that they've forced their way of life, their culture and their traditions on other countries.
Yes, I do hate their oppresive nature.