The following quote is from a socialist who wishes to arrange a counter demonstration against the St David's day parade in Cardiff. It is typical of the socialist mindset. Read it and understand why I hate the fact that the likes of Adam Price, Bethan Jenkins and Leanne Wood have dragged Plaid Cymru into the socialist mire.
Socialism and Nationalism are clearly incompatible ideologies. Plaid must decide either nationalism or socialism it can't be both!
As we know over the last few years the nationalists have stepped up their attempts to impose conformity and their bigoted ideology on our locale, they will be using St David's Day to impose the idea that Wales is a nation cosily united - rich and poor - against English oppression and waving their flags. They will be attempting to construct a 'welsh identity' that never existed and various other ideas that mystify social reality, class division and block the forming of genuine grassroots culture based on solidarity and diy principles.
It's time to organise a class war counter parade stating clearly -
No nations! No borders!
Internationalism and solidarity!
The working class has no country!
Somebody welsh on the minimum wage has more in common with an English or Polish worker than a welsh millionaire!
We will create our own culture from below that is fluid and dynamic not have some fake culture based on nationalism, patriotism and other authoritarian and servile crap forced upon us.
Major Arsehole
Hat Tip: Rhys Wynne
thanks for flagging this up Alwyn
ReplyDeleteI often wonder if these so called socialists know how bigoted they sound when they speak.
What's wrong with celebrating St David'd Day, I bet these same idiots celebrate St Patrick Day and support our welsh football and rugy teams, Heaven help us with these fools in our midst.
When you read this sort of stuff, you can see why some Plaid politicians wanted to form a Coalition with Labour.
ReplyDeleteI think you're in danger of assuming that Leanne Wood etc actually agree with the anti-Nationalist i.e. British nationalist Left.
ReplyDeleteI was on the St David's Day parade two years ago and Leanne was on it too - tell the truth I think there's a photo of her (or there was) in the Mochyn Du enjoying the apre Parade www.stdavidsday.org i think is the web address. I think Adam Price was also on the same parade.
I also notice from the Parade's website that there's a lot of different people from different backgrounds and religions too. So so much for the socialist rant.
Internationalist socialism = language and cultural death for smaller weaker communities.
The parade was also attended by Plaid, LibDems and Tory AMs - the only ones not there were ANY Labour AMs. Maybe St David is too extreme for them? It's on;y under the union jack and Britishiness that they want to unite people.
It's unfair of you to link Leanne Wood, Adam Price and Bethan Jenkins with that mind-set. You are making a fool of yourself MOF.
ReplyDeleteder said:
ReplyDeleteIt's unfair of you to link Leanne Wood, Adam Price and Bethan Jenkins with that mind-set. You are making a fool of yourself MOF.
Why is it unfair to mention Leanne, Adam and Bethan when criticising socialism? I thought that they linked themselves to this cause.
The anti-Welsh rant quoted is typical of socialist attitudes, its the sort of thing that Labour and other left wing parties have been saying for years. These are the views of Leanne, Adam and Bethan's socialist bedfellows and the views of many in the party that they forced Plaid into coalition with. There is nothing unfair or foolish in pointing this out.
It makes me fume when people use phrases like "Welsh identity that never existed" AAAAARGGGGHHH!! I wrote an angry post on my Y Ddraig Goch blog about similar comments left on the BBC site by Welsh people about the Welsh language.
ReplyDeleteThe guy who wrote that on the Urban 75 forum is a notorious brit nat masqurading as a socialist, and more to the point, a notorious fool.
ReplyDeleteHe belongs to a particular political tendency which can only be described as an embarassment to the wider left. He is regularly to be found (using the name Adamski) on the Socialist Unity blog leaving idiotic, kneejerk and fundamentally ignorant and bigoted Brit Nat comments in response to posts which attempt to deal creatively with the various national questiuons in the British state.
Sadly, there are quite few like him -but to lump everybody who sees themselves as socialist with these pillocks would be very unfaire indeed.
I think that that post has as much socialism as a veggie sausage has pork init Alwyn.
ReplyDeleteI know that all my socialist friends are very much supporters of this blessed land -- and do you know what , my non Welsh socialist friends are fully supportive too.
One stupid view isnt a true reflection of an ideal.
I'll be enjoying St David's Day again (with day off on the Friday this year) having helped negotiate Cyngor Sir Ynys Mon's recognition of the day. Except care workers etc who get a day off in lieu. Socialist (however defined by now) and no problem recognising in national days.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 19:42 said
ReplyDeleteSadly, there are quite few like him -but to lump everybody who sees themselves as socialist with these pillocks would be very unfaire indeed.
But surely the idea that the workers loyalty should be to his class and not his country is central to the socialist creed
If you accept that a Welsh worker has more in common with workers in other countries than he has with other Welsh people then you have to be anti Welsh for the sake of consistency. You can't be a socialist and a patriot, the two just don't go together.
Three cheers for you Alwyn ... the sooner we in Wales ditch this romantic ... infact it's more of a religious ... attachment to the failed moral conceits of socialism the better.
ReplyDeleteYou are of course correct that socialists have no loyalty to Wales or its communities ... of course so many who call themselves socialists are just confused, the useful idiots .........
"Sadly, there are quite few like him -but to lump everybody who sees themselves as socialist with these pillocks would be very unfaire indeed"
ReplyDeleteVery true, i celebrate my welshness and i would call myself welsh before i say i am british. I wouldnt indulge in the jingoism of St Davids Day, but then i would do exactly the same for valentines day, halloween, shrove tuesday...
In fact, as an atheist i simply do not believe any person deserves a 'sainthood'.
Ask me alwyn, as a socialist and an atheist, what do you suggest i do that is pro-welsh but anti st davids day?
I am sorry but your usual normally well thought out posts have been let down by this.
My socialism is about helping those less fortunate get a fair crack of the whip, i will support any effort to do so, irrespective of what vehicle is used. If Wales ever did become an independent nation, then i would support the centre left.
I do not accept the 'internationalist' ideals of socialism trumps any love or affection for ones birthplace.
If you believe this, they how do you square Plaid Cymru's or Welsh Nationalism's support of european institutions as a vehicle for Wales to express themselves?
I am puzzled by your post more than anything.
Southpaw Grammar said:
ReplyDeleteI am puzzled by your post more than anything.
I don't know why you are puzzled, the only consistent theme on this blog since it started 12 months ago is opposition to the socialist element in Plaid which has destroyed that once great party and caused the party to desert the nationalist cause.
And I can't "square" Plaid's support for Europe, because I see the party's support for the neo-Napoleonic empire that the EU is becoming as a policy which is as inconsistent with Welsh nationalism as is socialism.
"I don't know why you are puzzled, the only consistent theme on this blog since it started 12 months ago is opposition to the socialist element in Plaid which has destroyed that once great party and caused the party to desert the nationalist cause."
ReplyDeleteRegardless of my apparent oversight, which i accept, you still have no the swivel eyed task of painting a mass of people with one brush, based on one misguided view who happens to be socialist. That is stupid, dull and not something a person of your intelligence should indulge in.
I believe you are religious? Or at least a believer, but then i wouldnt judge you on the more extreme elements of your religion.
Its your method that is wrong, not what you believe.
Also, do you accept that unless plaid ditched the right-wing, anti-european approach for the socialist, pro european approach then they would still be a pretty obscure movement?
What the hell have Adam Price, Leanne Wood, Bethan Jenkins or any other Plaid politician got to do with the anti-Wales rant from this idiot? Yet again, you are making the mistake of assuming that you cannot be a socialist, a Welsh nationalist and an internationalist. Why not? I am, as are thousands of other Plaid members.
ReplyDeletePlease do not judge us by the dafter elements of Labour
"My socialism is about helping those less fortunate get a fair crack of the whip"
ReplyDeletenah .... socialism is about telling other people how to live their lives ... it's the politics of the control freaks ... oh and if you're the Kinnocks its a good way of getting rich.
Not sure what socialism has to do with pro-europeanism ....after all plenty of socialists have been anti-europe and the fascist Mosley was the great pro-European.
Plaid is essentially (true) socialist, nationalist and internationalist.
ReplyDeleteIt favours communities, culture and international commerce.
It is in no way isolationaist but more Euro-federalist.
It does not like social or class division, privatisation, brain-drain.
It is more socialist than New Labour, which is now right of centre. It accepts members of all political complexions, inc MOF
If Plaid is so "socialist", why on earth would they support the glorification of a long ago catholic preacher, surely true socialists could take a day for Marx, or even Castro who has probably given more support to the workers of the world than the church?
ReplyDeleteReligious holidays, we have enough already, do we not?
A new holiday should be secular!
"St" David may well have been a good fellow, but with over 90% of Wales no longer having ties to the church, isn`t it time to let go?
The three you mention are indeed just teenagers politically despite their actual ages. They are frozen in Student Union politics of post sixties - say seventies - but no fresher. I find them extremly boring and immature and I'm angry that they claim to represent a modrern Cymru.
ReplyDeleteAlwyn, your comments stem from a general misunderstanding of socialism. Economically, socialism is used to refer to an economic system characterized by state ownership of the means of production and distribution. More generally, socialism is the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community. Nowhere does it say that workers must be loyal to other workers, not the nation. At its core, socialism is about freedom, fairness and equality of opportunity.
ReplyDeleteYes, some forms of socialist ideology have promoted the views you ascribe to all socialists. Doing so is a bit like saying that all nationalism is about ethnic and linguistic purity, and/or world domination, or that all religious people are suicide bombers.
Landsker,
ReplyDeleteWhat is wrong with having a secular celebration of Wales on March 1st? Why not combine the two as the Irish do on March 17th? I would respectfully suggest that Guinness plays a bigger role on that date than their Saint.
As a de-centralist socialist, I will be on the march in Cardiff with my family, as I have on all the marches.
Both Alwyn's cultural nationalism and Adamski's "international" (i.e. British) socialism cling to each other because the one gives the other the opportunity to attack a straw man.
ReplyDeleteAdamski compares the innocuous St David's Parade with National Socialism and nazi mass rallies.
Alwyn smears genuine socialists as Brits with no interest in Wales and delights in attacking the left in Plaid more than the reactionary Tories or British Labour. Strange priorities Alwyn.
Both are mistaken because there is a very valid tradition of Welsh socialism in Wales, one that is a million miles from the Brit careerism of Kinnock and cultural nationalism of Saunders Lewis.
The Welsh socialism of Keir Hardie, of Niclas y Glais, of S O Davies and more latterly socialist republicans has always put the working class of Wales first. It is based firmly in the radical Welsh traditions of Lewsyn yr Heliwr, The Newport Rising, Merched Beca, the Miners' Next Step and all the grassroots activities that revived the Welsh language in the 60s and 70s by challenging capitalism's global culture.
It's not this tradition that is undermining Plaid, but the cowardly cultural nationalist leadership who have caved in on St Athans and Wylfa.
The person that made the original comment is the bizarre spokesperson for Respect(non-Galloway)'s Cardiff branch. He is vehemntly opposed to Plaid and I think it's safe to say his chosen party does not exactly have a monopoly on the word 'socialism'.
ReplyDeleteIan,
ReplyDeleteNo problem for me, with the notion of a secular holiday on March 1st.
It is just the issue of the name, and the connotations of religious allegiance.
Religion has been more or less eradicated from our government, schools and workplaces, why allow it into our parades?
As to death for smaller communities, isn't it Plaid who are currently attacking rural communities in Gwynedd by carrying out the biggest school closure programme in Wales ripping out the heart of small commmunities?
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone seriously believe that there is a fundamental ideological difference between Plaid and Labour? Welsh people deserve something better than the capitalist parties of inequality and big business.
I hear that Adam Price MP, Leanne Wood AM and Bethan Jenkins get a mention as socialists.
If they are so socialist why do they support £14 billion of our taxpayers money being squandered on war? On the biggest PFI in history - and let's remember that we pay for it with our taxes but the profits go to companies like cluster bomb manufacturer Raytheon All three have remained silent on the UK Military Academy (a little strange for nationalists to support Wales becoming the main training centre for the entire BRITISH military? But let them ride that contradiction). Consider just quarter of the sum being wasted on the military would be enough to eliminate child poverty across Britain!
Not a single Plaid AM, Cllr or MP has opposed this disgusting waste of public funds, while many have slavishly supported it. In a sense this represents the nationalists "clause 4" moment. Should billions be spent on war or public services? Plaid chose war!
Adam Price MP claims to be against privatisation and militarisation, yet he supports the privatised academy. Incidentally, while we're on the topic of nationalism, his disgusting calls for Iraq to be partitioned were thoroughly colonialist in mentality, would you not agree?
There's also Plaid's doublespeak over nuclear power. Peter Hain recently thanked the leader of Plaid for his key role in making sure that nuclear power won't end in Wales when Wylfa shuts down.
Ieuan Wyn Jones and Plaid have played a key role in scuppering the desire of activists to make Wales a nuclear-free-zone and crucially undermined the fightback against Brown's new generation of nuclear power stations. Isn't it the case that during the Assembly elections for the FIRST TIME EVER Plaid mysteriously dropped mention of nuclear power from an election manifesto reflecting their abandonment of their anti-nuclear stance.
Finally, Adam Price has made clear that Plaid's economic strategy for regenerating Wales is profoundly anti-socialist and based on courting foreign multinationals. Corporate globalisation means that companies race around the world looking for where they can get the lowest goods for the least pay. Plaid's strategy can only mean a continuation of the low paid economy.
He consistently cites Ireland as a model ignoring that the "boom" has seen a massive increase in inequality and child poverty and exploitation.
But more fundamentally consider this fact. Over the last 30 years their has been a decisive shift in the rich getting away with paying more tax. Who makes up the shortfall? Regular guys and gals like us, of course.
Adam Price and Plaid actually favour cutting corporation tax to even lower levels than even Thatcher or Brown would contemplate (and let's remember that Britain currently taxes big business at a lower rate than any major economy in the world!)
Britain is currently the 4th richest economy in the world. The problem is that the majority don't benefit from that wealth. 10% of Britian's population own two-thirds, maybe even three-quarters of that wealth. Over the last 30 years inequality has sharpened. Socialists say we should tax the rich till the pips squeak to rebuild the welfare state, Plaid's economic strategy panders to this set-up and can only mean the continuation of profound inequality of power and wealth that has profound dangers for our society and our democracy.
"The Welsh socialism of Keir Hardie, of Niclas y Glais, of S O Davies and more latterly socialist republicans has always put the working class of Wales first"
Sorry, socialism means putting the interests of all workers first regardless of nationality and fight for the unity of working people across borders. Your position smacks of national chauvinism and pitting one set of working people against another. Let's not forget the struggles across Britain that led to the building of the Welfare state and NHS.
Nationalism is inherrently cross-class, hence Plaid contains a left wing, a centre and a Right wing within the same organisation. Indeed Plaid came very close to forming a coalition with the Tories and LibDems in the Assembly, this was scuppered not by the left in Plaid - but by the LibDems pulling out at the last moment.
Plaid also mystify the causes of the genuine problems of poverty and social deprivation that Wales suffers. Unemployment, job insecurity, anti-union legislation, low pay and poor services, of course, are the problems of the entire working class in Britain.
We could also mention Plaid’s infatuation with being part of the Bosses club, the European Union.
Plaid is predicated on the idea of getting the best deal from Westminster or the best deal from EU subsidies - always within the framework of existing neoliberalism. The Plaid left want to ameliorate the worst effects of neoliberalism but ultimately end up sucumbing to neoliberalism. Really what Wales needs is a workers’ organisation composed of women and men who don’t simply favour one section of the world’s capitalists over another, but are determined to finish with capitalism once and for all and build . . . socialism.
I'm sure that Socialists in Wales can work with members of Plaid and Labour in many joint campaigns, but ultimately these organisations are a dead-end for workers in Wales who aspire to something better.
Plaid, Labour - what's the difference?
ANOTHER WALES IS POSSIBLE!
"But more fundamentally consider this fact. Over the last 30 years their has been a decisive shift in the rich getting away with paying more tax"
ReplyDeleteSorry should have read "paying less tax". I was highlighting that Adam Price wants to regenerate Wales through tax breaks to foreign multinationals rather than taking on corporate power to redistribute wealth.
Old Labour once spoke of "taxing the rich till the pips squeak" shame that Plaid won't confront corporate power but instead pander to it.
It's one thing writing long posts on blogs condemining nationalism,it's a another thing to organise a demo.
ReplyDeleteThere will be NO counter-demo.
The individual concerned was trying to wind up nationalist posters om the urban75 website.
And he's not spokesperson for Cardiff Respect as someone suggested.There's no such person.
If you were gullible enough to believe that post , Alwyn , then the left in Plaid has little to worry about.
The rant from anon on Plaid is pure Marxism. That's fine and a legitimate position to take. Such individuals consider anyone who is less Marxist than them as a Capitalist. There is no grey area for them.
ReplyDeleteI respect individuals who believe in a purely internationalist position with no borders, but in reality of course it is never going to happen as it goes against human nature.
I am always wary of people who use class as a definition of themselves. As a trade unionist, I see everyone I represent as equal, whether they are a part time cleaner or Chief Executive. As a Welsh nationalist, I also see all 3million Welsh people as equal, whatever their language, religion, place of birth, politics, sexuality etc. I also consider my nation of being equal to but no better than any other and believe that it not only has a right to govern itself but also that it would be in the interests of its citizens to do so.
I consider myself as a decentralist socialist, a trade unionist, Welsh nationalist and internationalist. I feel very comfortable in Plaid with this personal definition and do not believe that the political church making up Plaid is any broader than any other party.
The phrase "Decentralist Socialist" has always struck me as vaccuous! Akin to Kinnock's old clap-trap of "ethical socialism". it sounds nice but is meaningless.
ReplyDeletePlease define it for me?
As a trade unionist, how does Ian feel about his leader's new choice of drinking partners? I should mention that the leader of Plaid Cymru won't be in Cardiff on St David's Day but rather on WALL STREET!!!!!! Enjoying a free lunch with fat cats, capitalists and other wealthy parasites.
No socialist would be seen dead on Wall Street, but given that Plaid is a party whose economic strategy is based on courting foreign multinationals, Plaid's attempts to build links with the US capitalist elite are not unexpected.
People may remember that Hafod was shamed by socialists when Forward Wales adopted the slogan "Putting Wales First". As the radical left commented such a slogan "Put Wales first" could only be interpreted as we need to put Wales (rich and poor) ahead of other countries because we are Welsh.
Having been shamed, Hafod (now in Plaid) has duly amended the slogan to "Putting Welsh workers First" - but now he ties himself in even more knots and revealed himself as a complete national chauvinist. Afterall isn't this much the same as Gordon Brown's and many a trade union bureaucrats rhetoric of putting British workers first and defending British interests first?
What the hell does "Putting Welsh Workers First" mean? Substitute the word "White" for "Welsh" and you see the problem. It's about pitting the interests of one set of workers against another. So we pit Welsh workers against English workers, and the logic of this slogan would mean that Welsh workers have more rights than workers in the third world.
But turning to Ian's more substantial points.
ReplyDeleteIn actuallity, the issues I have criticised Plaid over are not particularly marxist and were once supported by the broad left in Labour, Plaid and Far left:
1) TAXING THE RICH
I criticised Plaid's economic strategy which is totally thatchertite and based on cutting corporation tax to lower rates than even the Tories or New Labour would contemplate. Old Labour once spoke of taxing the rich till the pips squeak. If Plaid claim to be an alternative to New Labour in Wales, why do they want to give taxbreaks to multinational corporations? I say tax the rich and big business to fund public services.
2) OPPOSE THE MILITARY ACADEMY
Nye Bevan called socialism 'the language of priorities'.
Imagine a huge sum like £14 billion (the biggest ever award of taxpayers money to Wales) . . .
This is 4 times the amount needed to eradicate child poverty in England, Scotland and Wales. Yet instead it is being used to turn Wales from one of the least militarised areas of Britain to the most militarised. You would think that NATIONALISTS would oppose Wales becoming the location for the entire training of the BRITISH academy, but for people like Leanne Wood, Adam Price and Bethan Jenkins who claim to be SOCIALISTS to say nothing about billions being squandered on military spending when our public services are in crisis is truly shocking, they don't speak the language of priorities. (In fact, Jill Evans MEP is the only member of Plaid's left who has survived this debacle with her integrity intact)
Let's be clear, St Athan's Military Academy is set to be Britain's "School of the Americas" a huge centre for counter-insurgency and further imperialist adventures abroad.
Wouldn't it have been great if the "socialists" in Plaid had said, "Why is there always a blank cheque for war but no blank cheque to eliminate child poverty?": Killing children or lifting them out of poverty? By supporting St Athan's the Plaid "Left" have immorally chosen the latter.
CLASS
Look Ian, we are all human beings and deserving of dignity. But as the christian socialist RH Tawney once remarked, "What thoughtful rich people call the problem of poverty, thoughtful poor people call with equal justice a problem of riches."
And I have no idea why you term these very straightforward points as "a rant".
Yes the Kinnocks got rich on our backs a lot more like them in our history.
ReplyDelete"St" Davids day lets move on we been held back so long by the God thing.
As person who was told we were the enemy within,
lets have a new holiday secular call it. A.J.Cooks day.
lets have a new holiday secular call it. A.J.Cooks day.
ReplyDeleteA.J. Cook the Trade Unionist or A.J Cook the Actress?
Why not Thomas Cook - we could get a proper holiday then!