26/09/2008

True Wales' Untruths

There is a sweet irony in the fact that a movement calling itself True Wales should launch its campaign by making a string of untruthful claims!

The True Wales campaign claims that it is the voice of the majority that wants to see Wales remain a part of the UK. They are going to represent that true voice by campaigning against the Welsh Assembly gaining any new powers in a referendum called under the Government of Wales Act 2006!

The first untruth is the movement's claim that they are "opposed to the Assembly gaining further powers". What a crock of dung! The movement's real issue is opposition to the very existence of the Assembly. They want to see the Assembly abolished! But lending this bunch of fools support wont see the abolition of the Assembly - Abolition is not on the political agenda.

Their second untruth is that supporting their campaign will stop the Assembly from gaining further powers. No it wont! The Government of Wales Act has already granted the Assembly all the potential powers that a referendum could grant through the eLCO system. If a referendum is never held, or if a referendum is held today and Wales votes 100% NO - the potential powers in the Act remain. The Assembly will still get the powers but through a tortuous route rather than through a simple one.

The third untruth that True Wales makes is the claim that supporters of devolution all support independence. It is fair to say that some do see devolution as a step by step process towards independence. But only a fool could claim that a yes vote in a GoW Act referendum equates to a vote in favour of independence! Elin Jones, Adam Price and others have been honest enough to state that they see every step for devolution as a step towards independence; but they believe that a referendum ON independence is very far down the line. There is no way that the referendum in the offing can be claimed to be a referendum in favour of independence. The suggestion that Glyn Davies, Peter Black or Carwyn Jones (all of whom are in favour of further devolution) are crypto nationalists! It isn't just an untruth, it is a libelous lie to suggest that they are.

The fourth lie of True Wales is their claim that support for their movement is going to stop calls for independence. I believe that Wales should be an independent country. A devolution referendum - which ever way it goes - is not going to change my mind or the minds of most believers in independence! Indeed a NO vote might even be beneficial to our argument and might hasten independence. A NO vote would prove that the slowly slowly catchee monkey approach of some nationalists is an abject failure and enthuse more to support my belief that we should be campaigning for "whole hog" independence rather than siding with devolutionist unionists!

The fifth and most potent lie of "True Wales" is their false claim that
True Wales members chose the name because they believe those wanting Wales to remain a full part of the United Kingdom have been "unfairly categorised" as anti-Welsh


It is not unfair to categorise those who believe that their own compatriots lack even the slightest ability to govern themselves as Anti Welsh . Anti Welsh is the nicest thing one could say about them. Treacherous shits, the bottom of the dung heap, a shame and an embarrassment to their own country are amongst the kindest terms that I can find to describe them. Blogger would probably close this site down if I said what I really think about them!

The official response to the launch of the quisling cause has been rather mute.

Deputy First Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones, said that there was no need to set up a Yes campaign before Syr Emyr Jones Parry commission had judged the public response to further powers.


I agree with the thoughts of John Dixon, Plaid Cymru's chair who made the obvious point a few days ago that:
Opinion polls can help to inform that judgement, but they should never be allowed to become the determinant. There is otherwise a risk that we wait until the polls show that the argument has been clearly won before we start to present the case; and I don't understand how anyone would ever expect to decisively win any argument without putting the case.


If an YES campaign is needed it is needed NOW before UnTrue Wales gets a head start in peddling its lies. I can understand why more staid politicians might want to stand above the fray and not give the prats any credibility, but there is no doubt that a gauntlet has been thrown down. The "official" politicians might not want to take it up, but is that a reason for web politicos not to take up the gauntlet and run with it? One of the supposed strengths of political opinion on the www is its ability to galvanise support and create campaigns outwith the "official" channels. Can the web community pick up the gauntlet and create an enthusiastic Yes campaign?

29 comments:

  1. "True Wales" my arse. If they were true Wales they'd be building a wall down Offas and putting passport booths on the Severn bridges ;)

    What I would like to know, is when the bloody "Yes" campaign is going to start? Or is it assumed that everyone not involved with "No" is a yes? Wrong.

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  2. Whatever else you might say about these idiots, they now have momentum, and the longer we fart around, the more damage they can cause.

    I'm seriously thinking about a Public meeting in my area now. Bugger the leadership.

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  3. arthur english26/09/2008, 14:09

    Al Iguana said...

    "True Wales" my arse. If they were true Wales they'd be building a wall down Offas and putting passport booths on the Severn bridges ;)

    ........and that's exactly why the momentum of True Wales is unstoppable.

    Thanks, draig, for your welcome endorsement. Your mate Al really knows how to win friends and influence people's support for the True Nationalist cause.

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  4. Well I've not been called a quisling before, I assume you would apply it to me as a Welsh Unionist, when all I have asked for is democracy.

    I am afraid that you failed to include in your post, in error possibly, the agreement between Labour and Plaid which was designed to steamroller through .....

    "a referendum for full law-making powers under Part IV as soon as practicable, at or before the end of the Assembly term."

    and .....

    "Both parties agree in good faith to campaign for a successful outcome to such a referendum."

    A copy of the complete document from which my quotes are taken entitled "An agreement between the Labour and Plaid Cymru Groups in the National Assembly" can be downloaded from the Plaid website.

    No real debate to be promoted by either Labour or Plaid then, thank goodness for the democratic process a dissenters might voice a concern.

    I concur with John Dixon when he writes "I don't understand how anyone would ever expect to decisively win any argument without putting the case." His words ring of democracy and debate.

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  5. Anybody know how to start a Facebook / Beebo etc campaign for a Yes vote?

    To create a YES blog badge etc?

    Stonemason, I can accept that some Unionists are Unionists because they believe that the Union is best for Wales (Despite the fact that Wales is not officially part of the Union - it is a part of the Kingdom of England).

    What I cannot accept is that people who are prepared to lie through their teeth in order to do our country down, as True Wales has done, can be considered as anything other than anti-Welsh

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  6. There is no excuse for lies.

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  7. I read the story about 'True Wales' (who have an estimated membership of 20 members), in the news a few hours ago, hmmmmmm, it sort of reminds of the no campaign to the Welsh Assembly all those years ago.

    It does beg the question, when will these sad people give up and let us become an independent country with the right to rule ourselves?

    If they don't want to live in an independent Wales, I'm sure they can find their way to the English border (from Cardiff, our Capital City, its 60km away, to the east), and I'm more than sure that our friends in England will be very happy to receive these sad pathetic losers.

    If they didn't want the Assembly, and they want to go back to the bad old days, I'm glad to say this, thats not going to happen.

    The people of Wales voted for the Assembly, sadly, not before Mrs Adolph Thatcher decided to destroy our coalfields, and turn good decent workers into criminals.

    We have our Welsh Asembly Government, which was duely elected by the people of Wales, don't let the advances we attained in the past decade go down the drain due to the antics of a bunch of brain dead morons who think we can't go it alone.

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  8. brambling21, your ....

    "brain dead morons who think we can't go it alone."

    Thank you for that, I guess it was aimed at people such as myself.

    I have written a fuller response elsewhere, I try not to intentionally abuse people.

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  9. Alwyn, I'll look into it. Don't know anything about Bebo, but I'm on facebook. I'll check it out. Let's see if we can give this thing a little momentum eh?

    Agree with Stonemason though that we should have a debate. I'm not a Unionist, but that's not a reason to abuse people whose views differ to my own.

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  10. And one more thing. We need a name!

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  11. arthur english29/09/2008, 00:14

    How about 'Republica Serbska'?

    Oh no, sorry, that one's taken, but you get the idea.

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  12. I'm sure you'd prefer "For Wales see England"...

    But then that one's taken too ;-)

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  13. The sad thing is, this isn't a referendum on further powers for the assembly - just the right for the assembly to do what they already do without begging westminster for three years before doing it. The end of the nightmare and pathetic LCO process. I've come into contact with the process at work and it's infuriatingly restrictive. Whatever you think of AMs they have good ideas and they want to improve wales - AMs of ALL parties! They can't at the moment, they'r chanied up!
    'True Wales' are actually fighting to keep the expensive bueurocracy in place, fighting against the simplification of the devolution settlement. Why?

    1. They're afraid that if Wales runs it's own shop, we won't need 36 expensive, uninfluential MPs in London (what's Don Touhig's job? What's David Davies' job?)

    2. They don't trust the people of wales to make the right decisions. They want the power themselves without the acountability of the Assembly and AMs

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  14. if David Davies and these unionist politicians are so scared of this referendum for more powers
    WHY dont they bugger off to where they were born! this is not there country WHAT gives them the right to talk against us Welsh? how do they know more about Wales than her people?
    this people are narrow minded and undemocratic..
    GO HOME and look after your people not ours!

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  15. Dilano, you have to be careful in the way that you react to those who support True Wales. David Davies probably has stronger Welsh credentials than I do. David is a descendant of Owain Glyndwr and of Peter Williams (the bloke who wrote the Rugby Anthem "Bread of Heaven"). You may not like it, but David Davies is undoubtedly a son of Wales. I disagree vehemently with David's opinion, but I respect his right to have and to propagate that opinion.

    One must also be careful of not alienating people who have moved into Wales, they will all be entitled to vote, many thousands of them will vote Yes, but not if they perceive the yes campaign to be one which has the message that they are not welcome.

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  16. well, true wales has put the frightens on the welsh nationalist, the Nat's know only to well that the vast majority of Welsh people do not see the world from their warped perspective, and do not believe in independence, I suggest we give the NAts Anglesey to live on, and make it independent country

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  17. well, true wales has put the frightens on the welsh nationalist

    What a load of crap!

    Who is frightened? My name is by my Post "Anonymous said", clearly I am less frightened of expressing an opinion than you are!

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  18. My opinion is there for all to see, whats wrong with the Anglesey idea, or we could hold indvidual votes throughout wales just as in Ireland. and those areas that want to leave can go.

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  19. Wales let it be a seperate country a great idea. Let us see us see if it could manage without the billions of pounds that is poured in. It would be the third world country it almost is. Then it can be towed out into the sea and sunk.

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  20. The people wales have two choices. To Follow True wales who want Wales to remain chained to Englands ankles forever , To destroy It's ancient language " The true native language of
    the british isles" , for Wales to remain Invisable to the outside world.Indeed for Wales to disolve into a greater England which is their real ultimate goal. My Future for wales is to have a real parliament , welsh History and language taught in School throughout wales , Wales and it's achivements premoted around the world where at present our history is plundered with historical figures like Arthur , merlin Stolen from us and turned into English heroes.Wales for such a small land mass has produced so many famous historical figures from Gildas , Nennius , geoffrey of Monmouth.poets such as Taliesin ,Aneiran, Iolo goch . Dark age heros like King Arthur,Myrddin who are world renowned who were first mentioned in Ancient welsh manuscripts. The most Famous of patron saints St Patrick or in welsh Maelgwyn his real welsh name!Plus numerious Actors, scientists , sportsmen & Women , Inventors. All who origins are lost in the mist of time because Wales is not premoted around the World. Only we can change this because if you follow True Wales example we won't exsist , we'll always be joined onto the hip of England an be refered to that back water , The invisable nation of Britain

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  21. True Wales, UKIP, BNP , all the same bunch of anti Welsh immigrants with the odd stupid welsh person sucked in

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  22. The pictures on their website sums them up really:

    nothing but green fields, coastline, cottages and a few castles.

    If you wanted to give a 'true' and positive representation of wales, why not put a few iconic buildings in? why not show any form of life?

    o yeah, i've just remembered, these ignorant b*****s still see Wales as an unpopulated wasteland full of sheep rather than the emerging and prosperous nation that it could become if we were granted more powers to rule ourselves.

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  23. If the peson who wrote the anti True Wales
    rubbish has any intelligence above his foot he would realsie that Wales has no assets for self Government unless you wanna start hunting rabitt
    and wearing cloggs ... oh wait perhaps you do

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  24. TW's problem seems to be its utter confusion. I don't want to cause divisions on either side of the debate, but TW's Tory supporters need to take a long look in the mirror. It's logic is quasi-Marxist and seems to share (somewhat unconsciously) some of the nastier and scarier aspects of what has come to be called 'Stalinist' history. There seems to be a worship of mechanistic explanations of history and a 1+1=2 mentality. The world is a little bit more complicated than that and it's disappointing that we seem to have learned little from the horrors of the 20th century.
    I can understand why semi-literate, semi-educated, semi-civilised socialists believe all this twaddle about inevitablity in history and inevitablity in so-called future history, but why are conservatives actively involved in spreading this utter shit, delusion, non-sense and paranoid conspiracy theory clap trap?
    people like David Davies have a great deal to answer for. Is there any hope for a cautious view of the world in Wales when one of its main spokesmen seems to ape all the worst aspects of superstitious Marxism and the worst aspects of the cancer of centralism and socialism which is the dominant religious creed of south Wales

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  25. Stridet nationalism is a form of identity clung to by those who have no other claim to a notion of 'self'.

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  26. Anonymous said...
    Wales let it be a seperate country a great idea. Let us see us see if it could manage without the billions of pounds that is poured in. It would be the third world country it almost is. Then it can be towed out into the sea and sunk.

    Well we could start charging the Emglish for our water.
    Isn't it amazing that the anti welsh brigade never use their real names, I wonder why?

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  27. The notion that Wales could not survive on its own is propoganda circulated in the late 19th century when welsh Nationalism began to rise again. I've just looked at the True wales web site. I am amazed that such old fashioned views remain. wales is all grown up now, we can look after ourselves, we don't need an older sister looking after us (England).

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  28. Be careful what you wish for.
    Welsh independance will create it's own worst enemy. That is an independant England.

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  29. Why on earth would an independent England be an "enemy" of Wales? If England and Wales were both independent then I would expect the relationship between the two countries to be much more harmonious than the current situation where the Welsh see England as an oppressor and the English see Wales as a scrounging dependant.

    When Wales and England are in charge of their own houses will be when neighbours become good friends!

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