I give my electoral support to Plaid Cymru because I believe that Wales should be an independent country. Plaid is the only party that, all be it grudgingly at times, supports this notion.
If you strip away the national aspect my political, economic and social values are much closer to those of Dylan Jones-Evans, Guto Bebb and Glyn Davies than they are to those of Adam Price, Leanne Wood or Bethan Jenkins. But I have no difficulty with working alongside people who support independence with whom I disagree on social and economic policy as long as independence is the main issue.
Unfortunately Plaid has campaigned in every election since at least 1997 on the slogan this election isn't about independence it's about ............. (insert socialist crap here).
I don't want to be a member of a party that puts socialism (or even conservatism) at the top of the agenda I want to be a member of a party that puts nationalism first.
The question is:
What is the best way of ensuring that a party that puts nationalism first and foremost exists? Is it by being inside Plaid and trying to re-capture the party for the nationalist first and foremost cause, or by forming a new nationalist party?
30/06/2007
29/06/2007
The gloating left and party unity
If Adam Price and Bethan Jenkins expect the whole of Plaid to unite behind the Party's decision to support the Labour coalition, can I suggest that they stop gloating about their socialist victory and stop rubbing the noses of the moderate majority into their left wing mire.
As much as Plaid may need to make gains in the Valleys, the party also needs to consolidate its vote and make gains in rural Wales too. Places such as Anglesey, Aberconwy and Ceredigion cannot be dismissed. There are many people in these areas who are bitterly disappointed by the Labour deal, and who are angry that Plaid has chosen to support what they see as an inherently anti rural Party and and its inherently anti-rural ideology.
Comments such as:
a party who has historically placed ourselves on the left (Bethan)
and
if we are what we say we are, a socialist party, a party of the left, then, all things being equal, when presented with a progressive programmed in alliance with another party of the left or an alternative programmed in alliance with the political Right, then our natural tendency should be to choose left. (Adam)
don't encourage unity, they feed the anger and disapointment of those of us who distrust Labour and dislike socialism. If you want the party to be united behind this deal then show a bit of humility rather than trumpeting it as yet another success for your socialist clique.
As much as Plaid may need to make gains in the Valleys, the party also needs to consolidate its vote and make gains in rural Wales too. Places such as Anglesey, Aberconwy and Ceredigion cannot be dismissed. There are many people in these areas who are bitterly disappointed by the Labour deal, and who are angry that Plaid has chosen to support what they see as an inherently anti rural Party and and its inherently anti-rural ideology.
Comments such as:
a party who has historically placed ourselves on the left (Bethan)
and
if we are what we say we are, a socialist party, a party of the left, then, all things being equal, when presented with a progressive programmed in alliance with another party of the left or an alternative programmed in alliance with the political Right, then our natural tendency should be to choose left. (Adam)
don't encourage unity, they feed the anger and disapointment of those of us who distrust Labour and dislike socialism. If you want the party to be united behind this deal then show a bit of humility rather than trumpeting it as yet another success for your socialist clique.
28/06/2007
Lords
With so much happening in the Bay and the House of Commons yesterday a story, that would in other circumstances, have been a major story was buried. After 10 years of service to his country and party as the Conservative spokesman on Welsh affairs in the House of Lords Lord (Wyn) Roberts of Conwy is to retire.
During the past 10 years Sir Wyn has been a hard working peer who has had influence on a number of important parliamentary measures that have had an effect on Wales, including the Government of Wales Act 2006. I hope that who ever replaces Sir Wyn is as much of a patriot as he is because the House of Lords will play an important role in the work of the National Assembly in future.
As we know the new Assembly will have the ability to pass laws under a very complex system. Assembly Measures will have to be approved by the Secretary of state, The House of Commons, The Privy Council and The House of Lords. The House of Lords will be able to oppose, amend (possibly) as well as approve Assembly Measures. It is, therefore extremely important that there are a number of patriotic Welsh men and women of Lord Robert's calibre in the Lords to ensure fair play for Assembly Measures as they pass through the house.
Of course Sir Wyn is a Tory and his successor will be a Tory. There are good Welsh people from other parties in the Lords too. My chapel minister Rev. Lord Roger Roberts from the Lib Dems. Lord Elystan and others from Labour and Dafydd Ellis Thomas from Plaid Cymru. There will be a huge responsibility on their shoulders too, to ensure the success of Assembly Measures.
But Dafydd El will face some difficulties in dealing with Assembly Measures in the Lords. Firstly, of course, he will have a lot on his plate performing his duties as Presiding Officer and may not have the time to spend in the Lords. Secondly as Dafydd is a member of the Assembly, the Privy Council and the Lords there could be constitutional problems if he were to take an active part in affecting Assembly Measures in all three bodies. Thirdly Dafydd has to remain "neutral" in his role as Presiding Officer, it would be difficult for him to retain that neutrality if he was partisan either for or against an Assembly Measure in another place. So there is a danger that the only voice that Plaid has in the Lords could be silenced when Assembly Measures are being discussed.
There are a hundred thousand good reasons for opposing the very existence of the House of Lords and as many reasons for Plaid's policy of boycotting the place and not having members there, but we have to live in the world as it is until things change. As the House of Lords is going to have such an important role to play in the Assembly Measures process it is time for Plaid to think again about sending people to the Lords, and to do so in haste as the first Measure will be before the House about October time.
But who should be made a Nationalist Lord? Lord Alwyn of Oldfart has a certain ring to it, don’t you think? ;-)
During the past 10 years Sir Wyn has been a hard working peer who has had influence on a number of important parliamentary measures that have had an effect on Wales, including the Government of Wales Act 2006. I hope that who ever replaces Sir Wyn is as much of a patriot as he is because the House of Lords will play an important role in the work of the National Assembly in future.
As we know the new Assembly will have the ability to pass laws under a very complex system. Assembly Measures will have to be approved by the Secretary of state, The House of Commons, The Privy Council and The House of Lords. The House of Lords will be able to oppose, amend (possibly) as well as approve Assembly Measures. It is, therefore extremely important that there are a number of patriotic Welsh men and women of Lord Robert's calibre in the Lords to ensure fair play for Assembly Measures as they pass through the house.
Of course Sir Wyn is a Tory and his successor will be a Tory. There are good Welsh people from other parties in the Lords too. My chapel minister Rev. Lord Roger Roberts from the Lib Dems. Lord Elystan and others from Labour and Dafydd Ellis Thomas from Plaid Cymru. There will be a huge responsibility on their shoulders too, to ensure the success of Assembly Measures.
But Dafydd El will face some difficulties in dealing with Assembly Measures in the Lords. Firstly, of course, he will have a lot on his plate performing his duties as Presiding Officer and may not have the time to spend in the Lords. Secondly as Dafydd is a member of the Assembly, the Privy Council and the Lords there could be constitutional problems if he were to take an active part in affecting Assembly Measures in all three bodies. Thirdly Dafydd has to remain "neutral" in his role as Presiding Officer, it would be difficult for him to retain that neutrality if he was partisan either for or against an Assembly Measure in another place. So there is a danger that the only voice that Plaid has in the Lords could be silenced when Assembly Measures are being discussed.
There are a hundred thousand good reasons for opposing the very existence of the House of Lords and as many reasons for Plaid's policy of boycotting the place and not having members there, but we have to live in the world as it is until things change. As the House of Lords is going to have such an important role to play in the Assembly Measures process it is time for Plaid to think again about sending people to the Lords, and to do so in haste as the first Measure will be before the House about October time.
But who should be made a Nationalist Lord? Lord Alwyn of Oldfart has a certain ring to it, don’t you think? ;-)
The next step
The haggling is over. I had my preference and my preference lost. A deal had to be done, so a deal has been done and we have to live with it, for better or for worse
All options had dangers for Plaid and the national cause. Red-Green and Rainbow both meant compromising with unionist parties, so neither option was perfect.
Good luck to Rhodri and Ieuan in governing Wales from day to day as new found best friends.
It's time to move on.
The national question is above coalition deals. Wales is a nation and the natural status of all true nations is independence. Aiming for independence is more important than coalition deals.
All coalition deals mean compromise, and Plaid has been compromised by this deal (as it would have been by any other). Plaid has an important role to play in putting the needs of Wales first in the government in which it is now a partner, but it cannot campaign for independence any more, because that would go against the grain of the government of which it is now a part.
The campaign for independence needs to be taken out of the party political sphere; Wales needs a convention for independence a non-party political campaign for independence or something similar.
Some have said that the blogosphere is important to politics in Wales, it could be on this issue. But I think that it would be better if those of us who believe in independence; from right, center and left who see the value of creating a campaign for independence got out of our internet bubble and meet in person to discuss how to create a real world campaign for independence, that ignores party political machinations.
All options had dangers for Plaid and the national cause. Red-Green and Rainbow both meant compromising with unionist parties, so neither option was perfect.
Good luck to Rhodri and Ieuan in governing Wales from day to day as new found best friends.
It's time to move on.
The national question is above coalition deals. Wales is a nation and the natural status of all true nations is independence. Aiming for independence is more important than coalition deals.
All coalition deals mean compromise, and Plaid has been compromised by this deal (as it would have been by any other). Plaid has an important role to play in putting the needs of Wales first in the government in which it is now a partner, but it cannot campaign for independence any more, because that would go against the grain of the government of which it is now a part.
The campaign for independence needs to be taken out of the party political sphere; Wales needs a convention for independence a non-party political campaign for independence or something similar.
Some have said that the blogosphere is important to politics in Wales, it could be on this issue. But I think that it would be better if those of us who believe in independence; from right, center and left who see the value of creating a campaign for independence got out of our internet bubble and meet in person to discuss how to create a real world campaign for independence, that ignores party political machinations.
27/06/2007
Not a BBC Blog
It's good to see that the BBC's Welshman in Westminster David Cornock is back in the Welsh blogosphere with his "independent" Not a BBC Blog, although his first post contains the frightening thought that Gordon Brown might appoint the anti-devolutionist Kim Howells MP as Secretary of State for Wales.
26/06/2007
On the school buses
There is an interesting debate going on in the Assembly at the moment about the safety of children travelling to school. Some of the discussion has arisen from the sad death of Stuart Cuningham Jones in a school bus accident and his family's campaign to ensure that there are seat belts on all school buses.
The bus that takes my children to school already has seat belts for each passenger, but the children won't use them. Those who do wear them during their first days in the new school are ridiculed by the other children. The culture of the school bus encourages (bullies even) children not to use the seat belts provided for their safety. I hope that the Assembly in its further discussions about this important topic will look at the school bus culture and at ways of encouraging students to use seat belts, having seat belts on school buses will not provide any safety for our children unless they are used.
The bus that takes my children to school already has seat belts for each passenger, but the children won't use them. Those who do wear them during their first days in the new school are ridiculed by the other children. The culture of the school bus encourages (bullies even) children not to use the seat belts provided for their safety. I hope that the Assembly in its further discussions about this important topic will look at the school bus culture and at ways of encouraging students to use seat belts, having seat belts on school buses will not provide any safety for our children unless they are used.
A post worth reading
This is a post worth reading by all of Plaid's Labour luvvies. And before anybody asks NO I didn't write it (but I wish that I had)
25/06/2007
Blogs undermine journalism
Clear Red Water has an interesting post entitled the Cult of the Amateur, which is a comment on the book The Cult of the Amateur: How today's Internet is killing our culture by Andrew Keen. I haven't read the book, so this response is to Clear Red Water's post only.
The argument made by CRW and Keen is that amateur blogs undermine the rules and constraints of professional journalism, by allowing all and sundry to comment without being "subject to ... professional, academic or peer reviewing".
My blogs aren't amateur journalism. Anybody visiting my blogs for objective journalism, considered analysis or fair insight is going to be bitterly disappointed. My blogs are just a note of my personal thought, they have no authority other than "this is what Alwyn thinks". The posts are not objective they are my biased, partisan, often bad tempered, some times drunken, arguments about the issues of the day.
My blogs are the electronic equivalent of what I might say if I was having a political discussion with my mates down the pub. The only similarity between this blog and journalism is a similarity to the letters to the editor's page or the radio phone in programme. As long as those reading and, most importantly, those writing personal political blogs are aware of their nature then they should not "undermine our sense of what is true and false, what is real or imaginary".
If writers and readers are aware of the nature of amateur blogs then I believe that blogs add to the political process and actually enhance, rather than distract from, political journalism and professional political comment. That they do contribute to the democratic process.
Objective political journalism and the views of political leaders are worthless in a vacuum. Ordinary people discussing the views of political commentators and leaders are what gives those views value.
Democratic change happens when the views of political commentators and opinion formers influence ordinary people, that influence can only happen when the people discuss the issues raised. Amateur blogs can play an important part in contributing to that discussion, as long as readers are aware that the contribution to the discussion made by a miserable old fart on a blog such as this has the same value as the contribution made by a miserable old fart over a half of mild and a game of dominoes in the Dog and Duck
The argument made by CRW and Keen is that amateur blogs undermine the rules and constraints of professional journalism, by allowing all and sundry to comment without being "subject to ... professional, academic or peer reviewing".
"Blogs have become so dizzyingly infinite that they have undermined our sense of what is true and false, what is real or imaginary. These days, kids can't tell the difference between credible news by objective professional journalists and what they read on joeshmoe.blogspot.com"
My blogs aren't amateur journalism. Anybody visiting my blogs for objective journalism, considered analysis or fair insight is going to be bitterly disappointed. My blogs are just a note of my personal thought, they have no authority other than "this is what Alwyn thinks". The posts are not objective they are my biased, partisan, often bad tempered, some times drunken, arguments about the issues of the day.
My blogs are the electronic equivalent of what I might say if I was having a political discussion with my mates down the pub. The only similarity between this blog and journalism is a similarity to the letters to the editor's page or the radio phone in programme. As long as those reading and, most importantly, those writing personal political blogs are aware of their nature then they should not "undermine our sense of what is true and false, what is real or imaginary".
If writers and readers are aware of the nature of amateur blogs then I believe that blogs add to the political process and actually enhance, rather than distract from, political journalism and professional political comment. That they do contribute to the democratic process.
Objective political journalism and the views of political leaders are worthless in a vacuum. Ordinary people discussing the views of political commentators and leaders are what gives those views value.
Democratic change happens when the views of political commentators and opinion formers influence ordinary people, that influence can only happen when the people discuss the issues raised. Amateur blogs can play an important part in contributing to that discussion, as long as readers are aware that the contribution to the discussion made by a miserable old fart on a blog such as this has the same value as the contribution made by a miserable old fart over a half of mild and a game of dominoes in the Dog and Duck
Welcome, Cleckanndra
A new member of the Welsh political blogging community is Cleckanndra, who appears to be on the left wing of the national cause.
Red Green "the only deal in town"
According to Martin Shipton of the Western Mail, A Labour Plaid coalition "now seems all but certain" as the majority of Plaid's AMs have stated that they will back the deal on Tuesday. Not only will they back the deal but they will insist that the Red-Green deal is the only deal on the table at the National Council on July 7th. Plaid's grass roots members will be denied the opportunity to discuss the Rainbow deal in the National Council, despite the fact (or perhaps because of the fact) that a poll to be published latter on today is rumoured to show that a majority of Plaid supporters prefer the Rainbow option.
I am disappointed, but not surprised. The fallacy in Plaid that the way to beat Labour is to pretend to be Labour has been ingrained into the party too deeply for the past 20 years, despite the fact that it is a policy that hasn't worked.
With a Westminster election on the horizon I had hoped that Plaid might regain Anglesey and Ceredigion and gain the new constituencies of Arfon and Aberconwy giving Plaid a record six seats. I can't see Plaid's decision to prop up the party that has shown nothing but contempt for rural communities and nothing but hatred for the Welsh Language and culture going down too well in these areas. I hope that I am wrong.
I am disappointed, but not surprised. The fallacy in Plaid that the way to beat Labour is to pretend to be Labour has been ingrained into the party too deeply for the past 20 years, despite the fact that it is a policy that hasn't worked.
With a Westminster election on the horizon I had hoped that Plaid might regain Anglesey and Ceredigion and gain the new constituencies of Arfon and Aberconwy giving Plaid a record six seats. I can't see Plaid's decision to prop up the party that has shown nothing but contempt for rural communities and nothing but hatred for the Welsh Language and culture going down too well in these areas. I hope that I am wrong.
24/06/2007
NHS drug research scandal
A quote From Buried by Mark Billingham
"Did you know that they've spent more money on developing Viagra than they have on research into Alzheimer's?"
"That's Terrible", Victor said.
"Your telling me. I'm walking around with a permanent stiffy and I can't remember what I'm supposed to do with it"
"Did you know that they've spent more money on developing Viagra than they have on research into Alzheimer's?"
"That's Terrible", Victor said.
"Your telling me. I'm walking around with a permanent stiffy and I can't remember what I'm supposed to do with it"
R-G v Rainbow isn't Left v Right
I am amazed by the way that so many from the left seem to have got their knickers in a twist regarding the right-left argument whilst considering the Rainbow v R-G coalition arguments. They claim that a Tory including Rainbow will be some form of extreme right wing government intent on privatising everything in sight, oppressing the working class and giving hand outs to the super rich. A Red-Green deal, on the other hand, will give Wales a progressive socialist government.
Both statements are, of course, absolute rubbish. Those who make such claims are either ignorant of the limitations of the Devolution Settlement for Wales or are deliberately misleading. The fact of the matter is that the limits of the National Assembly's powers give very little room for manoeuvre on the right - left axis. This is why the manifestos of all of the main parties for the last three elections have been broadly similar to each other. Most of the differences between the parties have been based on gimmicks rather than ideology. You can't distinguish left and right because one party wants free bus passes but the other wants free light bulbs, or that one wants to employ more nurse in the NHS but the other favours more doctors.
The National Assembly just doesn't have the authority to introduce either radical socialist policies or radical right wing policies. Even within the little leeway that the Assembly does have, the Government of Wales Act ensures that Westminster has oversight over almost any policy the Assembly makes. With New Labour and Cameroonian Tories converging on the middle ground in Westminster, the overseers are going to stifle anything that the Assembly does that even attempts to move away from the middle ground.
The coalition argument has nothing to do with right v left; it is a much simpler choice. Do we want a Welsh Assembly Government lead by those who have shown such incompetence in exercising the Assembly's limited powers over the last eight years, or do we want to give others the chance to prove that they can do better?
Those on Plaid's left who want Red-Green, because of misplaced socialist ideology, are deluding themselves and letting Wales down. You don't get four years of Socialism from Red-Green - you just get four more years of Labour failure.
Both statements are, of course, absolute rubbish. Those who make such claims are either ignorant of the limitations of the Devolution Settlement for Wales or are deliberately misleading. The fact of the matter is that the limits of the National Assembly's powers give very little room for manoeuvre on the right - left axis. This is why the manifestos of all of the main parties for the last three elections have been broadly similar to each other. Most of the differences between the parties have been based on gimmicks rather than ideology. You can't distinguish left and right because one party wants free bus passes but the other wants free light bulbs, or that one wants to employ more nurse in the NHS but the other favours more doctors.
The National Assembly just doesn't have the authority to introduce either radical socialist policies or radical right wing policies. Even within the little leeway that the Assembly does have, the Government of Wales Act ensures that Westminster has oversight over almost any policy the Assembly makes. With New Labour and Cameroonian Tories converging on the middle ground in Westminster, the overseers are going to stifle anything that the Assembly does that even attempts to move away from the middle ground.
The coalition argument has nothing to do with right v left; it is a much simpler choice. Do we want a Welsh Assembly Government lead by those who have shown such incompetence in exercising the Assembly's limited powers over the last eight years, or do we want to give others the chance to prove that they can do better?
Those on Plaid's left who want Red-Green, because of misplaced socialist ideology, are deluding themselves and letting Wales down. You don't get four years of Socialism from Red-Green - you just get four more years of Labour failure.
23/06/2007
An offer Plaid couldn't refuse
One of the problems of the half baked Government of Wales Act 2006 is that all National Assembly laws have to be approved by the Secretary of State for Wales first. Now as Gordon Brown seems to be offering cabinet posts to all and sundry in order to create a Ministry Of All Talents, how about he helps Rhodri out by making Elfyn Llwyd Welsh Secretary? That might even persuade sceptics like me to think twice about the Red-Green deal. Almost ;-)
No Lead in his Pencil
Despite the fact that Ieuan Wyn Jones was in Plas Menai, just a stone's throw from Martin Eaglestone's house to consult Plaid members about the different coalition options, Martin resisted the temptation to launch another "No Tory Coalition" stunt.
What was the cause of Martin's self control, what made him resist such a strong temptation? It couldn't possibly be that he can't afford to lose another biro, could it?
What was the cause of Martin's self control, what made him resist such a strong temptation? It couldn't possibly be that he can't afford to lose another biro, could it?
22/06/2007
Graffiti
Graffiti is disgusting, anti social and completely unacceptable, so who ever is responsible for defacing the unequivocal Plaid message that once appeared on Leanne Wood's blog should be thoroughly ashamed.
21/06/2007
Gordon Brown Meme
I have been asked by Little Man in a Toque to take part in the Gordon Brown Meme. I was tempted to take the same view as Ordovicious, but as Blamerbell seems to be the only Welsh blogger so far to have taken up the challenge I have decided to give it a go.
Two things Gordon Brown should be proud of
His Scottish Heritage
Putting up with a neighbour from hell for a whole ten years
Two things he should apologise for.
The tax credit fiasco
Wasting billions of tax payer's money on an illegal war
Two things that he should do immediately when he becomes PM.
Get rid of Hain as Welsh Secretary
Repeal the referendum clause and the dual candidacy clause of the Government of Wales Act
Two things he should do while he is PM.
Recognise the legitimate claims to nationhood of England and Cornwall and ensure that devolution treats all five nations of the UK with equal validity
Begin negotiations with the leaders of all five countries to prepare for eventual independence.
Tag others
As most of the contributors to the Meme have been right-wingers so far, I would be interested in the views of some Labour supporters so I pass the baton on to Normal Mouth, Clear Red Water and Live from the Socialist fortress.
Two things Gordon Brown should be proud of
His Scottish Heritage
Putting up with a neighbour from hell for a whole ten years
Two things he should apologise for.
The tax credit fiasco
Wasting billions of tax payer's money on an illegal war
Two things that he should do immediately when he becomes PM.
Get rid of Hain as Welsh Secretary
Repeal the referendum clause and the dual candidacy clause of the Government of Wales Act
Two things he should do while he is PM.
Recognise the legitimate claims to nationhood of England and Cornwall and ensure that devolution treats all five nations of the UK with equal validity
Begin negotiations with the leaders of all five countries to prepare for eventual independence.
Tag others
As most of the contributors to the Meme have been right-wingers so far, I would be interested in the views of some Labour supporters so I pass the baton on to Normal Mouth, Clear Red Water and Live from the Socialist fortress.
Time for the English Democrats in Ealing South?
Those of us who are old enough to remember the 1960's will remember that it was by-elections, rather than general elections that enabled Plaid Cymru and the SNP to become parties of influence on the electoral stage, rather than the fourth place and forgotten party.
If it wasn't for the by-election of Winnie Ewing in 1968 the SNP wouldn't be in government today, if it wasn't for Gwynfor Evans' by-election victory in 1966 Plaid wouldn't be poised to be a party of government (one way or the other) in the National Assembly.
If the English Democrats are to make headway into the mainstream of English politics then it is important that the party takes advantage of every by-election in England to advance its cause.
Because of the sad death of Piara Khabra MP in Ealing South a by election will have to be held there shortly.
The constituency profile doesn’t make it the most hopeful for an ED breakthrough, but I do hope that ED will put up a candidate and campaign vigorously in the by-election.
If they do I hope and trust that all Welsh, Scottish and Cornish nationalists support the ED candidate, either by spending a day or two in the constituency offering practical help, or by sending a tenner (or more) to the Campaign Fund.
If it wasn't for the by-election of Winnie Ewing in 1968 the SNP wouldn't be in government today, if it wasn't for Gwynfor Evans' by-election victory in 1966 Plaid wouldn't be poised to be a party of government (one way or the other) in the National Assembly.
If the English Democrats are to make headway into the mainstream of English politics then it is important that the party takes advantage of every by-election in England to advance its cause.
Because of the sad death of Piara Khabra MP in Ealing South a by election will have to be held there shortly.
The constituency profile doesn’t make it the most hopeful for an ED breakthrough, but I do hope that ED will put up a candidate and campaign vigorously in the by-election.
If they do I hope and trust that all Welsh, Scottish and Cornish nationalists support the ED candidate, either by spending a day or two in the constituency offering practical help, or by sending a tenner (or more) to the Campaign Fund.
An answer to Clear Red Water
In the comments section of my last post, Clear Red Water makes some interesting points and asks some pertinent questions. My response is too long for a reply in the comments section so here it is as a separate post.
Clear Red Water said:
I don't think that campaigning for independence would harm Plaid, for two reasons.
Firstly if you ask anybody what is Plaid about? What makes Plaid different to the other parties? etc you'll get the same basic answer - Plaid believes in independence for Wales. Some may word this sentiment in a more positive way, others' wording might be much more negative, but all will agree that Independence is Plaid's unique selling point. Plaid enjoys its current level of support because of / despite the fact that we all know that Plaid is a Nationalist party that wants independence for Wales.
When Plaid representatives on the telly try to wriggle out of the National Question it makes them look like liars.
Comments such as this election isn't about independence its about the future of Llandudno/ Whithybush / Prince Phillip hospital, give the impression that the rep is embarrassed about what we all know is the party's true policy.
When Plaid spokespersons say silly things such as "full national status in Europe", "equality with other UN member states", " the evolution of devolution" and other euphemisms that avoid the I word they give the impression of being two faced, of trying to con the electorate with fancy words.
I think that giving the impression, even if it is unintentional, of being an embarrassed, two faced, lying con-party doesn't attract votes. It probably puts voters off voting Plaid. So an honest approach towards independence would be a vote winner rather than a vote looser, at worse such honesty would have a neutral impact.
The second point is related to the first. If journalists ask Plaid about independence and Plaid wriggle out of answering, then the argument for independence isn't made. If the argument for independence isn't made how are people going to be convinced of the validity of that argument?
When other parties, as they always do, attack Plaid for its nationalism but Plaid doesn't respond by making a strong counter attack in defence of nationalism, then the impression given is that nationalism is indefensible.
Again, refusing to make a positive argument in favour of the principal that we all know Plaid favours, refusing to defend the political patch on which we all know Plaid stands is a vote looser rather than a vote winner.
If Wales is a nation, it should be independent. Independence is the natural status of all true nations. Independence is the logical step that Wales should aim for. I am convinced that if a vigorous campaign for independence was started today, then a referendum in favour of independence would be successful in about 2020. This would be better for Wales and better for Plaid than jumping into bed with Labour for some tinkering at the edges of devolution in 2015 would be.
Clear Red Water said:
Miserable,
I respect your view and one which is very consistent and thoughtfully argued. But do you honestly believe that such a campaign for independence will seriously win out in the short or even medium term? I would contend that much of Plaid growth has focused on them actually ditching the 'independence now' message.
I think the assembly's popularity is growing, but i also think that support is based on the notion we are not in perpetual motion to independence. Or to put it less categorically, ENOUGH people take this view to make the independence argument unwinnable.
As a Labour member, i would dearly love Plaid to revert to such a suicidal position, but surely you cannot say what you suggest is really a good electoral strategy for Plaid?
I am curious, i am not having a go. I am just a bit confused if you really believe this and how do you qualify it?
I don't think that campaigning for independence would harm Plaid, for two reasons.
Firstly if you ask anybody what is Plaid about? What makes Plaid different to the other parties? etc you'll get the same basic answer - Plaid believes in independence for Wales. Some may word this sentiment in a more positive way, others' wording might be much more negative, but all will agree that Independence is Plaid's unique selling point. Plaid enjoys its current level of support because of / despite the fact that we all know that Plaid is a Nationalist party that wants independence for Wales.
When Plaid representatives on the telly try to wriggle out of the National Question it makes them look like liars.
Comments such as this election isn't about independence its about the future of Llandudno/ Whithybush / Prince Phillip hospital, give the impression that the rep is embarrassed about what we all know is the party's true policy.
When Plaid spokespersons say silly things such as "full national status in Europe", "equality with other UN member states", " the evolution of devolution" and other euphemisms that avoid the I word they give the impression of being two faced, of trying to con the electorate with fancy words.
I think that giving the impression, even if it is unintentional, of being an embarrassed, two faced, lying con-party doesn't attract votes. It probably puts voters off voting Plaid. So an honest approach towards independence would be a vote winner rather than a vote looser, at worse such honesty would have a neutral impact.
The second point is related to the first. If journalists ask Plaid about independence and Plaid wriggle out of answering, then the argument for independence isn't made. If the argument for independence isn't made how are people going to be convinced of the validity of that argument?
When other parties, as they always do, attack Plaid for its nationalism but Plaid doesn't respond by making a strong counter attack in defence of nationalism, then the impression given is that nationalism is indefensible.
Again, refusing to make a positive argument in favour of the principal that we all know Plaid favours, refusing to defend the political patch on which we all know Plaid stands is a vote looser rather than a vote winner.
If Wales is a nation, it should be independent. Independence is the natural status of all true nations. Independence is the logical step that Wales should aim for. I am convinced that if a vigorous campaign for independence was started today, then a referendum in favour of independence would be successful in about 2020. This would be better for Wales and better for Plaid than jumping into bed with Labour for some tinkering at the edges of devolution in 2015 would be.
20/06/2007
Red-Green for a Refrerndum WHEN?!!!!
Much has been said about a referendum being the main advantage of a Red-Green coalition.
My personal view is that a better deal would be a deal based on scraping the need for a referendum. I have also posted a number of opinions saying that if a referendum had to be held that it would be better sooner, rather than latter.
Throughout my musings I had assumed that the Only Labour Can Deliver a Referendum Brigade were assuming that the referendum would be held in time to give the Assembly its new powers after the next Assembly election in 2011.
It appears not.
Betsan Powys, almost as an aside, mentions a conversation she had with Red / Green sceptics in Plaid's Assembly group:
Sorry! Win in 2011! - So the much touted Referendum that is the lynch pin of the Red-Green deal won't be held until after the 2011 Assembly election?
That means supporting Labour, for no new powers until 2016. And in 2016 what will we have (if the vote goes "yes")? The powers that Scotland had twenty years earlier, but with less than one fith of the policy areas over which Scotland exercised those powers in 1997! This is called GOOD by Plaid's Labour Luvvies?
Neil Kinnock said in 1979 that devolution was the slippery slope to independence - Plaid argued that it wasn't at the time, but secretly believed that Kinnock was right, Plaid Cymru has based its national vision on Kinnock's belief ever since 1979.
Kinnock was wrong!
Welsh Devolution has proved, so far, that it has neither the lubricity nor the gradient required to lead to independence.
Its time for Plaid to realise this fact; to give up on its evolution of devolution policies, to go back to its roots and to re-ignite a proper Campaign for Independence.
My personal view is that a better deal would be a deal based on scraping the need for a referendum. I have also posted a number of opinions saying that if a referendum had to be held that it would be better sooner, rather than latter.
Throughout my musings I had assumed that the Only Labour Can Deliver a Referendum Brigade were assuming that the referendum would be held in time to give the Assembly its new powers after the next Assembly election in 2011.
It appears not.
Betsan Powys, almost as an aside, mentions a conversation she had with Red / Green sceptics in Plaid's Assembly group:
But there was a bigger question being posed by some too - a tactical question. IF the deal goes through and IF the promise of support for a referendum is part of that deal and is seen as nothing more than a make-or-break Plaid demand, isn't it going to be much harder for the 'Yes' camp to win the vote come 2011?
Sorry! Win in 2011! - So the much touted Referendum that is the lynch pin of the Red-Green deal won't be held until after the 2011 Assembly election?
That means supporting Labour, for no new powers until 2016. And in 2016 what will we have (if the vote goes "yes")? The powers that Scotland had twenty years earlier, but with less than one fith of the policy areas over which Scotland exercised those powers in 1997! This is called GOOD by Plaid's Labour Luvvies?
Neil Kinnock said in 1979 that devolution was the slippery slope to independence - Plaid argued that it wasn't at the time, but secretly believed that Kinnock was right, Plaid Cymru has based its national vision on Kinnock's belief ever since 1979.
Kinnock was wrong!
Welsh Devolution has proved, so far, that it has neither the lubricity nor the gradient required to lead to independence.
Its time for Plaid to realise this fact; to give up on its evolution of devolution policies, to go back to its roots and to re-ignite a proper Campaign for Independence.
Welsh Blogger in Vote Rigging Scandal
Beer for Everybody who votes for ME in the Welsh Blog Awards 2007
The beer can be obtained in your local pub after you pay the full price for it
The beer can be obtained in your local pub after you pay the full price for it
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