If Adam Price and Bethan Jenkins expect the whole of Plaid to unite behind the Party's decision to support the Labour coalition, can I suggest that they stop gloating about their socialist victory and stop rubbing the noses of the moderate majority into their left wing mire.
As much as Plaid may need to make gains in the Valleys, the party also needs to consolidate its vote and make gains in rural Wales too. Places such as Anglesey, Aberconwy and Ceredigion cannot be dismissed. There are many people in these areas who are bitterly disappointed by the Labour deal, and who are angry that Plaid has chosen to support what they see as an inherently anti rural Party and and its inherently anti-rural ideology.
Comments such as:
a party who has historically placed ourselves on the left (Bethan)
and
if we are what we say we are, a socialist party, a party of the left, then, all things being equal, when presented with a progressive programmed in alliance with another party of the left or an alternative programmed in alliance with the political Right, then our natural tendency should be to choose left. (Adam)
don't encourage unity, they feed the anger and disapointment of those of us who distrust Labour and dislike socialism. If you want the party to be united behind this deal then show a bit of humility rather than trumpeting it as yet another success for your socialist clique.
It's not as if Plaid has made any progress in those valley seats in Glamorgan and Gwent since they became "socialists".
ReplyDeleteSocialism belongs in St Fagans.
The Broad Church is finito. Time for an alternative.
ReplyDeletethat's brilliant, just as I was starting to like Plaid again, they give me another reason to not support them.
ReplyDeleteshocking
I agree with you about the tone set - it is uneccessary.
ReplyDeleteAs for splitting the Broad Church -is this really in the best cause of Welsh nationalism. It is inevitable that it will happen at some point after we get a parliament - even more likely with STV - but is now really the time?
It can work in places like the Basque country because the nationalist vote - split between various parties - is the majority vote. I doubt whether we have reached that stage in Wales yet.
I agree that gloating is very unwise and hardly likely to lead to unity, but you make the mistake in assuming like many bloggers that all socialists within Plaid supported the red/ green option at all costs. This is simply not the case.
ReplyDeleteI would advise the whole party to look at the comments from IWJ as he was in the know more than anyone and has never been accused of being a serious leftie.
As for Ordovicius's comments, now there's a man carping from the outside because he doesn't have the guts to join and argue his case-destined to be an empty vessel I'm afraid.
As for Ordovicius's comments, now there's a man carping from the outside because he doesn't have the guts to join and argue his case-destined to be an empty vessel I'm afraid.
ReplyDeleteGuts, Mr Anonymouse? At least I don't hide my identity!
Yor rather naiive (yet amusing) comment does not take into consideration that I have absolutely no interest in joining your party. With typical short-sighted arrogance you believe that nationalism is somehow Plaid's "bitch" and that all nationalists can only have their views validated by becoming members of that party. As usual, you are quite wrong, though it is rather entertaining that people like you are so easily nettled. The Labour hegemony of Welsh politics is not good for democracy, and equally so Plaid's hegemony of nationalism. Like your socialist siblings in Labour, no doubt you would prefer Wales to be a one party state.
As for splitting the Broad Church -is this really in the best cause of Welsh nationalism.
There is no broad church, Gwe. It cannot be argued that allowing Plaid to have a monopoly on nationalism is a good thing.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"that's brilliant, just as I was starting to like Plaid again, they give me another reason to not support them."
Don't give up. The "pink" element appear to come from a small group in south west Wales and it's almost certain they developed because of fear they would loose former Labour votes. Yet this is the area now most publicly outraged at their behaviour. This is also an area suffering very badly under Labour. If these AMs are labour-hiding-in-plaid then they will be outed very soon.
Most of us vote Plaid because it is the only Welsh party on the ballot, a party which we think - naively perhaps - stands for a free Wales and puts the interests of Wales first.
ReplyDeleteSocialism? Check out the real socialist vote in Leanne's constituency: Socialist Labour 0.84%, Respect 0.52%, Socialist Alternative 0.4%, Communist 0.32%
That's how much the voters care about socialism - zilch.
Ordo - "It cannot be argued that allowing Plaid to have a monopoly on nationalism is a good thing. "
ReplyDeleteI am not arguing that Plaid should have a monopoly on anything - it's a concept I abhorr.
Like many Plaid supporters I'm sure, my first allegiance is to the goal of attening proper self-government for Wales. My allegiance to Plaid is secondary, but but the fact is that, for the time being, it is the only party we have that is concerned soley with Wales, its people and its position within the UK and Europe.
My only concern is this : splitting Plaid will split the nationalist vote. Does this help us in the here and now? I'm simply not convinced - it is too risky.
In the future - if it serves to better represent the obvious plurality of nationalist thinking, without giving the British Parties the upper hand, once a new parliament has been firmly embedded and the elecorate have got used to any new electoral system - then, why not?!
My only concern is this : splitting Plaid will split the nationalist vote. Does this help us in the here and now? I'm simply not convinced - it is too risky.
ReplyDeleteIt's an old argument and a rather tired one IMO. Democracy is risky. Nationalism has to bigger than one party, and leaving it in the hands of one party whilst awaiting a day that subsequently may never come is hardly anyway to satisfy the aspirations of those who don't subscribe to Plaid's socialism.
I find I consistently agree with the remarks of gwe, and with ordo when he says the nationalism is not the prerogative of Plaid Cymru. As for anon (Jo?) it is simpy untrue that we in SW Wales are "leftists" or "pinkos". I keep saying that this is the politics of the past century. They are only *labels* and there is no 'left' and 'right'. Consensus politics in Wales' interests and its people's interests has arrived, along with the voting system. Let's wake up and smell the bacon. Change is in the air, and you (we) can make a difference! See my posting....
ReplyDeletealanindyfed said:
ReplyDelete/As for anon (Jo?) it is simpy untrue that we in SW Wales are "leftists" or "pinkos"./
Definately not a Jo. No idea who that is. Unless another anon.
Give up guessing the anons Alan. There are far too many.
Ordo - waiting until we get a proper parliament is hardly a 'day that will never come'.
ReplyDeleteWhat is your exact position then? Why do you think splitting Plaid would help the nationlist cause and how do you think the new paries would align in the present system?
There's a welcome in the Tory Party
ReplyDeleteAnon said "Socialism belongs in St Fagans."
ReplyDeleteIf that's the case where are the Labour votes of the north east and south wales going to go? Not to the Tories and a lot not to Plaid
Its what's happening to the Labour party that is interesting. They have reached a point where they have to define themselves and decide where their allegiance lies. For Wales to move forward dramatically, a section of Labour would have to put their allegiance first to Wales, and this is happening now. No wonder Kinnock and the MPs are rattling their cages.
They are only *labels*
ReplyDeleteYet they are labels that Plaid's Lefties repeatedly use.
What is your exact position then? Why do you think splitting Plaid would help the nationlist cause and how do you think the new parties would align in the present system?
Plaid insists on posturing on the left, therefore it is rather a weak argument to suggest that those who are not so minded should subscribe to that party just for the sake of the "nationalist cause". Whether Plaid splits or not is simply not my problem, it is not my party.
Ordo - I sometimes wonder whether you wilfully misread people's comments. I am not saying that Plaid has a 'monopoly' on nationalism - I am asking you what gain you see from splitting the nationlist vote - since this is a psotion you seem to advocate, I think it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask.
ReplyDelete"Whether Plaid splits or not is simply not my problem, it is not my party."
Come on - this verges on the petulant! Can't you engage in a debate for once without resorting to your usual pithy answers?!
Come on - this verges on the petulant! Can't you engage in a debate for once without resorting to your usual pithy answers?!
ReplyDeleteCalm down dear!
I have given you my opinion, Gwe. Whether it isn't "engaging" enough for you is also on the "not my problem" list, along with the future of Plaid Cymru. If you can accept that Plaid does not have a monopoly on nationalism then I am surprised that you cannot stretch your imagination far enough to encompass the fact that that is indeed my opinion and therefore what Plaid does or does not do, does not register on my "giveacrapometer".
There has been far too much talk of splits and divisions IMO.
ReplyDeleteLet all nationalists unite, whether or not they belong to Plaid.
There is work to be done!
Ordo -"I have given you my opinion, Gwe."
ReplyDeleteI beg to differ. You still haven't said why splitting Plaid would advance the nationalist cause, nor have you made any suggestions for the 'alternative' you obviously feel is necessary.
If the future of Plaid doesn't register on your crapometer thingy, I'm sure the future of nationalism does.
Care to share any thoughts?
I will be turning up to National council to vote and speak against the red green deal. I understand that the more sensible elements on the left are unhappy at us abandoning a leadership role and taking on the status of a junior partner/third/fourth party. We should be either leading the government or leading the opposition.
ReplyDeleteI beg to differ. You still haven't said why splitting Plaid would advance the nationalist cause, nor have you made any suggestions for the 'alternative' you obviously feel is necessary.
ReplyDeleteYou still don't get it, Gwe. For you the nationalist cause=Plaid Cymru. For me this is not the case. You cannot divorce them therefore you you persist in asking me about Plaid, whereas for me Plaid is a pseudo-socialist party that does not even enter into the equation when it comes to nationalism. The vfact that nationalism is seen as Plaid's proprty is what is holding it back. Nationalism can never under these circumstances become mainstream. Therefore the question of "splitting Plaid's votes" is entirely irrelevent.
Ordo - "Therefore the question of "splitting Plaid's votes" is entirely irrelevent."
ReplyDeleteI am afraid it is you who 'doesn't get it' - 'it' being the very specific point I've been trying to get you to answer about why you think having two or more nationalist parties under our present electoral system, in our present constituational development, would be advantageous.
Furthermore, I am not naive enough to equate the "nationalist cause" with Plaid Cymru. However, in parliamentary terms, it is 'de facto' the voice of nationalism because it is the only party which sees Wales as a nation state.
I concede that Plaid may well be a 'pseudo-socialist' party, but what do you mean when you say that Plaid doesn't even enter the equation when it comes to nationalism?
If Plaid doesn't even register on your scale of nationalist criteria, then what kind of party/parties do you think we need?
If Plaid doesn't even register on your scale of nationalist criteria, then what kind of party/parties do you think we need?
ReplyDeleteParties that reflect the aspirations of their members. Every party's membership is a "broad church" which is what is wrong with politics in general, as it leaves half the people disenfranchised.
am afraid it is you who 'doesn't get it' - 'it' being the very specific point I've been trying to get you to answer about why you think having two or more nationalist parties under our present electoral system, in our present constituational development, would be advantageous.
No Gwe, 'it' is the view that having only one party is somehow advantageous. It quite evidently is not, as it prevents the independence question from becoming mainstream.
Ordo - diolch - I have now understood what you mean ( I hope!) - you have to be patient with me, as I'm a little deaf, you know :)
ReplyDelete"Parties that reflect the aspirations of their members. Every party's membership is a "broad church" which is what is wrong with politics in general, as it leaves half the people disenfranchised."
I agree, in principle. Getting parties with a more defined 'agenda' might well counteract voter alienation. And, as you suggest, this is equally true of Labour, the Tories and perhaps even the Lib Dems if the old Lib/SDP split is still relevant.
Taking that into account, then taking that first step (having two or more nationalist parties) would be a brave move indeed, because they would not be entering a level playing field.
I think you are right in saying that having more than one nationalist party would shift the political gravity - that is to say, nationalist aspirations could no longer be subscribed as the 'quirk' of one party. So again, we are in agreement.
My only worry is that in a system that is not truly representative of the percentage each party receives, having another two smaller parties would only play into the hands of the larger unionist parties.
My only worry is that in a system that is not truly representative of the percentage each party receives, having another two smaller parties would only play into the hands of the larger unionist parties.
ReplyDeleteWales should have as many AMs as smaller Northern Ireland does, with the same electoral system.
Ok, so should this nationlist relignment happen before or after a new Welsh parliament with an improved electoral system is in place?
ReplyDeleteOk, so should this nationlist relignment happen before or after a new Welsh parliament with an improved electoral system is in place?
ReplyDeleteIt has already begun, thanks to Plaid's left hand gang.
Ordo said:
ReplyDelete"It has already begun, thanks to Plaid's left hand gang. "
Or it might be just a few in a small area with a mission.
Everyone needs a mission in life.
ReplyDelete