Welsh Nationalist or Brit Socialist

Blamerbell, in his latest post asks the question:

Why aren't there more of these eminent republicans within the ranks of Plaid itself? After all, this is a party, which wants to see an independent, socialist Wales. One would have thought the idea of a British monarchy was pretty inimical to that goal.

I don't understand why any member of Plaid, or any Welsh Nationalist outside the party, should be a republican.

Republicanism is an important question for the SNP - since the Union of the Crowns the King / Queen of England is also, legitimately, the King / Queen of Scots. If Scotland gains independence then a question has to be asked as to whether an independent Scotland wishes to remain a Kingdom or become a Republic.

Wales is exempt from this question. The (true) Princes of Wales were always chosen by the law of edling the anointed one rather than by primogeniture, Queen Elizabeth is not the Queen of Wales (and she doesn’t claim to be). If Wales becomes an independent nation it will have to be a republic, unlike the Scots we have no other choice.

I can't see the point of the republican question within a Welsh Nationalist context. What difference the Queen of the United Kingdom opening the Senedd or the President of the United Republic?

If we believe in Independence for Wales why should we try to force a republic onto either England or Scotland? If we truly believe in independence for Wales what England or Scotland choose to do is none of our effing business.

Republicanism is an Unionist issue, not a Nationalist one, Leanne and others in the loony left of Plaid have to make up their minds:

Are they Welsh Nationalists or Brit Socialists?


  1. Republicanism is an Unionist issue, not a Nationalist one,

    Good point Alwyn - that makes me really think.

  2. Yet another thoughtful post from Mr Misereable - the thinking man's blamerbell.

    Mind you I don't think there is any question about this feminist social-worker wing within Plaid Cymru. Of course they are Brit socialists, as they poodle along in the wake of the latest Guardianista good cause.

    Self-indulgent, morally conceited preeners who dress up their own parasitical economic self-interest as some great crusade on behalf of "the socially excluded"

  3. I'm plaid, and I think this is plain downright rude of these two AMs. They know where they should be, they know they get paid to represent their constituents and their consituents want them to respect the formalities of the government they are members of.
    I'm afraid we might be seeing future queen bees who cannot handle the fame of welsh politics and see it as a platform to get publicity in any event.

  4. I'm Plaid and I wonder whether MOF and the anonymous posters here are on the same planet. Can you be a Welsh nationalist and a royalist at the same time? No, unless you propose to revive the Welsh royal line (not that I do)
    Can you be a socialist and a royalist? No.

    In what way are Leanne and Bethan Brits? It's just a lazy attempt to smear - either you're Welsh nash or Brit left. Really?

    The fault lines in Welsh politics are quite complex - between unionism and nationalism and also left and right. Class AND nation.

    As for being rude to the Queen - yeah, what else have you got? AMs don't get paid to toady about the place licking the monarchy's arse.

    Fel rhywun oedd a pharch tuag atat ti yn raliau Abergele, Alwyn, dwi'n disgwyl gwell gan gyn-weriniaethwr... ydi'r sefyllfa wleidyddol wedi symud mor bell i'r dde fel bod sylwadau di-feddwl fel 'ma'n medru cael eu gwneud?

  5. their consituents want them to respect the formalities of the government they are members of.

    Many thanks for speaking on my behalf and that of all the other constituents of these 2 members.

    Clearly you've polled everyone in South Wales West and South Wales Central thoroughly to come up with such a sweeping statement.

    Well one of the reasons I voted for Plaid was because they are less likely to tug their forelock to people who don't deserve it.

    It isn't rude. A walkout would be rude. If I don't like someone, I don't go and see them either.

  6. Who believes in forelock tugging?

    The Queen is part of the constitution - nothing more - and by insulting her they are insulting the constitution. This is the same constitution that from my point of view will hopefully lead to the establishment of an independent Welsh Republic. In the meantime I respect the institutions that go to make up that constitution.

    Of course there is a principled way to establish a Welsh Republic without regard to the current constitution. That's the path taken by the 'Ra and the Shinners. Not a path I'm interested in, but at least a principled path, which is more than can be said for Leanne and Bethan's childish antics.

  7. Without structure and respect for traditions in our society we will be heading for lawlessness and anarchy. Some say we are heading fast that way now. Read the newspapers.

    Take the politics out of it, this is the twenty first century and for the sake of our future civilisation we must keep the structures that define our common cultures withi the British Isles. And that includes the monarchy.

  8. So when did I say that I am a "royalist" Hafod? What I said is that the royalist / republican debate is irrelevant to Welsh nationalism.

    What the republicans in Plaid are opposed to is the fact that the Queen rules over us because of her birth, because she is not head of the Union by election. This is not a nationalist issue it is an unionist one. It is an issue that considers the best way of governing Great Britain and is only relevant if you see Wales' future as remaining a part of Great Britain.

    By making a republican gesture these two Plaid AM's are effectively saying that what they want for Wales is for us to be part of a British Republic - sorry but you can't want Wales to be part of a British Republic and to be independent. Republicanism and Welsh Nationalism don't mix.

  9. In Plaid's early days it proposed a policy of abstentionism along the lines adopted by Sinn Fein.

    Since that time it has accepted the curremnt constitutional settlement, which is why these two AMS should be condemned for insulting - not the Queen - but the head of state.

    A principled position would be to readopt a policy of abstentionism, this is just infantile leftism.

  10. The Queen is playing a role in Welsh Political Life, therefore I think that Bethan and Leanne are right to not attend her opening the Assembly, as the principled people they clearly are. Good to see politicans willing to stand up for what they believe in. Good for them I say.

    The royals should not play a role in Welsh life (Or British life, but that is another matter, since I am not nationalist.)It is just ashame that no Labour AMs are boycotting the event.

  11. Anonymous said

    //The Queen is part of the constitution -//

    Do we have a constitution?

  12. "Do we have a constitution?"

    I believe we do, although it is not contained within a single document.

  13. It'a pity more AMs don't adopt Leanne Wood's and Bethan Jenkins' position. I suppose the others are too busy buying new hats and suits to think about how ridiculous we look, with this feudal throwback opening our Senedd

  14. Republicanism and Welsh Nationalism don't mix.

    I'm surprised you think constitutional matters are irrelevant to Welsh nationalism. The monarchy sits atop the whole rotten pile and is therefore symbolic of all that we oppose, surely?

    Why this makes them British republicans baffles me - they're Welsh republicans. Remember those?

  15. What gets me about the Plaid left is the support they give to English based campaigns, very often campaigns which are fronts for the vile Socialist Workers Party.

    No doubt this obsession with the causes of the English left has made Plaid "respectable" with the Guardian, Independent, BBC etc. I remember when Welsh nationalists didn't bother themselves very much with English dominated campaigns ...... Good old days.

  16. The only campaign I can think of that could fit that category would be the anti-war campaign. Plaid has a long and honourable history as an anti-war party and the Plaid left (and the party generally) has built on that with its involvement in the campaign against war in Iraq.
    So what if the scummy SWP is involved? The SWP was involved in the anti-poll tax movement and the miners' support groups too.
    If it's any comfort, the SWP anti-war campaign in Cardiff got rid of Leanne Wood as its chairman in a sectarian move.

  17. oh dear I'm a long time Plaid voter who supports the war in Iraq, supported the poll tax and although at the time I did support the miners - now think that strike was a great mistake. I also believe that Plaid's anti-war stance is certainly long but hardly honourable......funny old world isn't it.

  18. This is the reality of Labour 2007 .
    Theres a e-petition to keep the 10p tax band,this is something that is going to effect a lot of people on low income.if you have a moment please could you sign it.

    Please pass this around.

  19. Your being slightly mischievous here Old Fart. The symbolism of AMs elected to serve the people of Wales effectively paying homage to the Queen of England is clear for all. If it’s not a nationalistic statement to publicly refute such kowtowing then I don’t know what is.

  20. I am not being mischievous at all Ted, I am merely trying to highlight the important point that many on Plaids left choose to follow a British Socialist agenda at the expense of the national cause.

    If you look at either Bethan or Leanne's posts on this subject you will not find a nationalist argument on them justifying their decision to boycott the opening of the Assembly by the Queen.

    Jeff Rees makes the point on his blog that the Finns "do not call on the King of Sweden to do it (open their parliament), not because he is a King but because he is not Finnish.

    If the Prime Minister or the Speaker of the House of Commons opened the Assembly I would find that as objectionable and unacceptable as the Queen opening it - because they are not Welsh and because they are symbols of our subservience

    If Leanne and Bethan objected to Elizabeth opening Wales' parliament because she was not Welsh then they would have my wholehearted support, but their own words show this is not the case, they object to her because she is a queen.

    Bethan and Leanne's blog posts / copies of their press releases could have been written by any British Socialist, indeed their opinion is supported by a number of British Socialist Celebs

  21. I think you are being very unfair towards Bethan and Leanne here. It is obvious from their press release and comments that they oppose the involvement of the Queen for 2 reasons.

    1, because the monarchy is undemocratic.
    2, because the monarchy is irrelevant to the people of Wales. i.e. that they are an English/Germanic institution.

    Bethan Jenkins:
    "As a Welsh person, I do not see how the Monarchy is relevant to my everyday life"

    Leanne Wood:
    "The royal family are irrelevant to the people of Wales and so there should be no need to have a royal opening of the third assembly. My allegiance is to my constituents and the people of Wales, not to the monarchy."

  22. Bethan - the monarchy is relevant to your life because you live in a constitutional monarchy - like Sweden, like the Netherlands, like Spain. I think it would be quite right to boycott Charles and Camillas dinner at Cardiff Castle, since they have no constitutional position, but the head of state opening the Assembly is another matter.

    Leanne - I am sure that the majority of your constituents support the constitutional monarchy. If you believe otherwise please run on a republican ticket.

    I would have some sympathy with these two if they had boycotted the opening because of the fact that the English Queen and her family have usurped unto themselves titles to which they have no right, Prince of Wales, Earl of Meioneth, Earl of Snowdon.

  23. If Leanne and Bethan objected to Elizabeth opening Wales' parliament because she was not Welsh then they would have my wholehearted support, but their own words show this is not the case, they object to her because she is a queen.

    Of course it is a Welsh Nationalist argument. I can't fathom why you don't believe it wouldn't be.Its too easy for you to portray us as loony left. I excepted a higher tone of discussion from you to be honest.

  24. No Bethan, it's not easy for me to portray members of Plaid as Loony Left, its not easy for me to complain about the way a party that I was a member of before you were born has been usurped by people who haven't the slightest interest in promoting independence for Wales, but just see Plaid as a way of continuing the socialist domination of Wales through other means.

    It's not easy for me to see people like Dafydd Wigley and Ieuan Wyn Jones, who I have known for many years and know to be more right wing than I am pretend to be Socialists for the sake of electoral gain!

    You can't imagine how heartbreaking it is for a person who has been a supporter of the Nationalist cause for over 40 years to have to even think about voting for a party other than Plaid because that might be best for Wales

    Its not easy it's bloody hard, very bloody hard!

    You and Leanne chose to make your absence from the Queen's do tomorrow a Brit Republican issue rather than a Welsh Nationalist one - you had the choice of making your protest part of the national cause, rather than the socialist cause, and you chose the socialist cause.

    I don't do high tone or low tone comments on this blog, I do nationalist tone. The tone that I expect, but rarely get, from Plaid Cymru these days - to be honest

  25. Whilst I usually disagree with Bethan and leanne on just about everything I have to say the plaid would be a lot duller without them.

    I do share some of Alwyn's views that many on the left in the party seem terribly anxious to receive the approval of the British left, and that they have a disproportionate influence on the party. Still if Alwyn, myself and others cannot be bothered to turn up at party meeting and or get others to do the same we live with the consequences...that democracy.

    Its noticable that when we fight an election on broader issues of concern to the public, as we have just done, such as hospital closures (incidently some on the left of the party,not Bethan or Leanne, supported labour proposals and tried to sideline the campaigns), cuts in business rates more police officers etc we win votes and seats.

    I dont think the "left" understand how off putting for many of our potential voters the language of socialism is. I think we now have the policies about right but we need to work on the terminology we use and focus on the issues of concern to the voters.

  26. Bethan and Leanne would have done their cause more good and would have be seen as being less in awe of the Brit Left (as well as being cringingly opportunitstic and sancitmonious by visiting the homeless) if they'd have gone to Cilmeri.

    By going to Cilmeri they'd have given prmoinence to Welsh identity. As Miserable said, we should oppose the Senedd being open by the Speaker of the House of Commons etc. I don't care for the English monarchy, not because I'm particularily anti-monarchy (there are plenty of Scandinavian states which are in tune with BEthan and Leanne's policies which are monarchies) but because it's a badge of our subjection as a nation.

    Going to Cilmeri would have made this point much stronger and would have been much more radical ... too radical for Bethan and Leanne?

  27. I don't the the Senedd should be opened by anyone other than the Head of State. Anyone below that rank would lessen the status of the Assembly.

    I agree Alwyn, the matter the British Head of State should not concern Welsh nationalists. I remember saying someting on similar lines when Plaid debated whether to send people to the House of Lords.