Should Plaid be more Eurosceptic?

In response to my post Reflections on the Euro Result James D made an interesting comment:

James D said...

I think there's another side to it: the Tories and the English Independence Party did well in a European election because of their Euroscepticism, whilst the Liberals got buried thanks to their being Eurofederalists. Plaid would do a lot better to fight to reclaim our rights from both Westminster and Brussels, rather than schizophrenically taking from one and giving to the other.

I think that James makes a fair point. Plaids enthusiasm for the EU isn't in tune with the view of the majority of Welsh voters and it does appear to be a bit hypocritical to be asking for separation from one Union which is too big and remote to consider the needs of Wales but to enthuse about full membership of a bigger even more remote union.

Of course the support for Europe is, like the support for Socialism, one of those policies adopted by the party in the mid eighties, when the party started to move away from its nationalist beginnings. In the 1975 EEC referendum Plaid Cymru was against the UK remaining in the community, Dafydd Elis was a particularly vigorous campaigner for a No vote.

Having been a supporter of the EEC in 1975 I was pleased when Plaid changed its oppositionist policy. However the policy was, at the time, one where Plaid wanted Wales to be part of a reformed EEC where economic co-operation was not dependent on Europe wide rules and regulations, but was an Europe of the Nations. A policy similar in many respects to William Hague's In Europe but not run by Europe stance. A return to such a policy would make much more sense and be more in tune with Plaid's heritage than appearing to support the creeping moves towards an European Nation State.

It was 1865 when the Tories did it last!

William Hague said it was 1931.

Adam Price said it was 1918

As the only person old enough to remember, I can state categorically, that it was in 1865 that the Tories last won the popular vote in a Welsh election.

Of course womenfolk and common folk weren't allowed to vote then - so maybe it doesn't count!

I hope that it will take at least another 144 years before they do it again. If it does I'll blog the result with a link back to this post!

Reflections on the Euro Result

The first comment has to be feeling absolutely sickened at the fact that two British fascists have been elected to the European Parliament.

To think that just two days ago we were remembering the sacrifices that people from these islands made in order to rid Europe of Fascists.

Today we are sending Fascist to be part of Europe's Parliament. Words cannot describe how bitterly I feel about this result - the people who voted for this evil party have pissed on every cenotaph in Britain and every allied war grave in Europe.

The result in Wales was also a bitter disappointment.

Adam Price has been spinning about how good the result in Wales was for Plaid, with only 2% points between Plaid and the Tory winners. But the truth is that Plaid has lost 14,000 votes since the last Euro Elections.

The last Euro elections were generally seen as a disastrous result for Plaid, but this time round the party lost votes and only managed a 1.5% increase in its share of the vote when the main opponents, Labour, lost 12% of its vote share.

This election was not only a disaster for Labour in Wales but was also a disaster for Plaid.

UKIP, a party that believes that Wales is just a geographical expression, a party that wants the National Assembly abolished and a party that opposes any use of the Welsh language now has 1/4 of the Welsh representation in the EU parliament.

Plaid gave them that seat by not fighting vigorously for Wales and not exposing UKIP for the vile anti Welsh party that it is. If Plaid has to learn one lesson from this election it must be that they must never give UKIP such an easy ride in any election again.

The SNP appears to be doing exceptionally well in Scotland, the BBC is projecting that it will beat Labour into second place with a lead of about 10%. There is little difference in policy issues that divide Plaid and the SNP. There are similar demographics between Scotland and Wales, so why is the SNP doing so well and Plaid doing so badly?

I would suggest that it is the way that the parties portray themselves.

The SNP is clearly a nationalist party that supports social democracy. Plaid comes across as a socialist party that supports Welsh democracy.

Plaid policies, Plaid members and Plaid's appeal are not socialist they are Nationalist. The party doesn't need to change what it believes in, it needs to change the way in which it sells those beliefs, by emulating the SNP and becoming a nationalist party that believes in social democracy rather than portraying itself as a closet communist party.

Incredible

Vaughan has the number of constituencies won by each party in Wales:

Conservative 17
Labour 15
Plaid 7
Lib Dem 1

Clearly with such a low turnout these results wont be reflected in either a Westminster or Assembly general election, but they will make some of them interesting!

The BNP and the Oxygen of Publicity

There is an illogical editorial comment in today's Independent relating to the call by the Archbishops of Canterbury and York for people not to vote for the BNP:

... sincere though their intentions undoubtedly are, the content of the latest statement from the two archbishops of Canterbury and York, warning people not to vote for the far-right British National Party (BNP) in next month's European and local elections, must be counted a mistake.

Dr Rowan Williams and Dr John Sentamu are playing directly into the hands of the BNP by whipping up yet more brouhaha over what is likely to remain a marginal force in Britain's political life. Quite inadvertently, they are feeding the party with the oxygen of publicity to a degree that must be delighting the party's leader

Fine advice to give to their graces in private, perhaps, but isn't publishing that advice in a major newspaper doing the exact same thing that it is criticising the Archbishops for doing - giving the BNP the oxygen of publicity?

The hypocracy of the editorial is added to by the fact that the paper not only has a lead comment about the BNP, and coverage of the Archbishops' comments but also two other stories both of which relate to the fascists apparent high rankings on the internet. These two stories actually highlight the danger of the dont give them the oxygen of publicity argument. If Archbishops, humanists, newspapers, mainstream politicians and bloggers don't expose the BNP for the foul and hateful organisation that it is, for fear of giving it publicity, the only source of information that people are left with is the fascists' own self-generated propaganda.

I wish that the BNP didn't exist, but I have to face the reality that it does exist. Ignoring it in the hope that it goes away isn't going to work. The only way to deal with it is to confront it and tell people loud and clear why it is evil and why it is not worthy of any decent person's support. I am glad that Rowan Williams and John Sentamu have done so.

Aye We Can - A song for Europe

This is Scottish blogger Aye We Can's song for the European election. I enjoyed it I hope that you do too!

A Debate on Euro Legislation?

A debate on Euro legislation. HT Ordo:

Seal products from indigenous hunts are exempt from the ruling, permitted only where they result from hunts conducted in a traditional manner and which contribute to the subsistence of indigenous hunters - ie the Inuit.

So the Inuit can continue to practice their quaint little customs as a museum nation, but can't use their natural expertise to create a sustainable international business? Typical imperialist attitude from the Neo Holy Roman Empire.

Why shouldn't the Inuit be able to promote their natural produce in the same way as we promote Welsh Lamb?

Like the fox hunting ban, the whale hunting ban and the anti vivisection campaigns, its all part of the trend to force extremist vegetarian ideology onto the masses.

Campaigns invented by woolly headed urban liberal prats who have no real experience of the reality of rural life and who don't have a clue about the way that the food chain works.

People who think that canis canis edit and nature red in tooth in claw belong after the watershed, in hovels but not in respectable society.

I can see no difference between promoting a Canadian Seal product market on a par with the New Zealand Lamb product. A strong market force to sell Canadian Seal, as a world wide product, would probably do more to protect the seal than nicey-nicey campaigns to stop it's commercial exploitation (nobody kills the golden goose!).

Enabling the Inuit to succeed in a world market would also enable their indigenous culture to survive in a modern context.

Agree or disagree with my rant on seal products, can you tell me how your party incumbent voted on this issue in the EU parliament or how your party candidate will vote on such issues in future, or how your vote might change the overall parliament attitude on this subject?

The answer is NO!

So where is the accountability?

Where is the purpose of voting?

WHERE IS THE DEMOCRACY?

Not a Kick in the Goolies Vote?

Because I am a political anorak and a bit of a weirdo, I love elections.

Elections warm my bones, boil my blood and do things to me that are unmentionable on a family blog before the watershed.

But I am not very exited at the moment. The Euro elections leave me cold. I am fairly politically astute. I know what a bloody nose a poor Euro election result would give poor Mr Brown in the domestic setting. If Plaid, or goodness forbid, the Tories (or both) had more votes than Labour in Wales it would be seen as yet another historic moment in Welsh politics. Both - either - could happen, but only on a less than a 30% turnout. A superficial result for the winners a tragic result for European and Welsh democracy.

The European election should be as exiting as any other election.

The media is full of stories about what these Euro politicians do to us.

Apparently they decide how many holidays we are entitled to and how strong / sensitive our condoms must be.

They have a say on the European grants that are shared amongst our farmers and industrialists, how many fish we can catch in the sea and they decide how bendy our bananas are and how straight our cucumbers should be!

Important matters. I could give an opinion on any of these issues and generate a heated debate on them in the comments section of this blog.

But could any commentator tell me where any of the incumbents stand on any important EU issue? What is their voting record?

Despite being a political anorak and a weirdo I don't know!

Is Jill for or against bendy bananas? Has Eluned voted for or against fishing quotas? If these issues come up again which way will the new Welsh members vote?

Could anybody advise how I should vote, based on an EU manifesto rather than a Kick Brown in the Goolies Ticket?

No! Thought not!

The problems of PR

A recent YouGov Opinion poll for Scotland suggested that if a Westminster election was held this week that the likely result would be Labour 32%, SNP 30% Conservative 21% and Lib Dem 13% (96% total so I assume others 4%). If this is stuck into the Scottish Calculator on Electoral Calculus this gives a seat result of Labour 35 seats, SNP 10 seats, Conservatives 5 seats and Lib Dems 9 seats.

Clearly there is an "unfairness" element here. Labour and the SNP almost neck and neck, but Labour win more than three times as many Scottish seats. The Lib Dems on a third fewer votes than the Conservatives get almost twice as many seats! I can understand why people want PR, but I remain an agnostic on the issue.

I am not quite opposed to PR, because I can see the obvious failings of First Past the Post that this example gives. But I'm not convinced of the benefits either.

If one listens to party propaganda Plaid Cymru has had a huge effect on Welsh Politics between Gwynfor's election in 1966 and Plaid becoming a party of Government in 2009. Some of the claims might be taken with a pinch of salt, but some of them are probably fair. Tories might claim credit for the Welsh Language Act and S4C and Labour might claim credit for the Welsh Office and Devolution, but if it wasn't for the existence of Plaid, as a thorn in their side, these things would, probably, not have happened.

If Plaid has had only a quarter of the influence that party propaganda suggests over the past 50 years then Plaid's influence has been more than proportional to its vote tally, even under FPTP.

In the 1989 European Election the Green Party received 15% of the vote. This was before the partially PR D'Hont system was used in Euro elections, so the party won no seats. Under the present system they would have won a significant number of seats for the same number of votes. But despite winning no seats the party had an influence that was much grater than the size of its vote merited. Since 1989 every mainstream party has had to take green issues seriously. Not as seriously as the Green Party might wish, but the influence of that one election has been much more proportional than the vote merited and very much more than the Green Party vote has merited in subsequent elections.

Most political pundits accept that the Fascists will gain at least one, possibly as many as three seats in this year's Euro Election. They won't gain anywhere near as many votes as the Greens got in 1989. Under a FPTP system it is unlikely that they would have saved their deposits anywhere, they probably wouldn't have got enough votes in any constituency to make the difference between who won and who lost. But with PR they will gain seats.

Those seats will give them a platform worth much more than their vote and will make some mainstream candidates compromise with Fascist policies in order to retain and regain votes in the same way as Green issues were taken on board post 1989. This is the frightening side of PR.

As I said I am an agnostic on the issue - I can see both sides of the argument I can see merit on both sides and problems on both sides. But how does one square the circle?

New Blogs

A welcome to a number of new and newish blogs.

Sanddef of Ordovicius fame has added two new URls to his belt.

Cyflwr yr Undeb is only a fortnight old, but already has 55 posts, making it by far the most prolific Welsh language blog, and it is a blog worth reading.

Sanddef and I rarely agree on European matters, but there is little opinion on CyrU, just lots and lots of links to sources on European issues that are of value to Europhiles and Europhobes alike. Sanddef now has an English version of the CyrU site State of the Union. If you love the EU bookmark it - if you hate the EU this is the secret info amo store!

With the EU elections on the horizon a new Plaid blog has appeared called Best for Wales. This blog seems to be an unofficial back Jill Evans for Europe blog. A worthy cause, no doubt, but one that has a whiff of negativism about it. Plaid, Labour and the Tories will have a seat each in next years Euro elections. The fight is for the fourth seat - shouldn't europhile Plaid blogs be backing Eurig to gain the spare, rather than dissing him as a challenge to Jill's seat?

Another Plaid challenger who is bloging his campaign is Elfyn Llwyd MP, who has his eyes on the party presidency.

I have known Elfyn for too many years to remember, so I can't say anything against him.

He would make as good a Party president as anybody, he is one of the few Plaid big wigs who oposes using the socialist tag and that is a plus to me!

But, given that the party's power is vested in the Leader who will always be in Cardiff Bay, the President is still the Queen of the party, the Head of State, the titular top honcho - if Elfyn won the presidency - wouldn't there be somthing pervers in having Plaid's symbolic top dog in Westminster?

A Question of politics?

If you were to hold a hustings meeting to find out who the majority of Plaid Cymru members want to represent them as the party's lead candidate in the European Parliament elections, where would you hold it?

A) In Blackwood, Monmouthshire

B) In Blaenau Ffestiniog, Merionethshire

I am grateful to Ordovicius for explaining why the right answer:

A Blackwood

has nothing to do with trying to ensure that incumbent MEP, Jill Evans, secures the party's first place nomination spot, now that the party has given up on its women first policy.

The sad thing is that most Plaid members feel that Jill has been a good MEP, she could win the nomination on pure merit in Meirionnydd and elsewhere.

This sort of gerrymandering will discredit her as a candidate and add to Llais Gwynedd's claim that Plaid takes their heartlands for granted, whilst doing nothing to show that women in the party can win on merit, rather than through machinations.

Election Thoughts

This is a late post on my thoughts about the council elections, but inspired by The Prof's latest post.

Dylan thinks that there will be a Plaid Cymru / Llais Gwynedd coalition in Gwynedd!

I think that it is unlikely that Plaid and Llais will kiss and make up. If Llais was to co-operate with Plaid, having stood an election on a basically anti-Plaid ticket, they would look like real prats!

However, I suspect that the reason he might think that they are close is because they are both nationalist parties. Meaning that nationalists made a net gain of eight seats in Gwynedd last week. A bad night for Plaid, maybe, - but a good night for Welsh nationalism? Having nationalists in both government and opposition in Gwynedd will be interesting - will a nationalist debate enhance the cause or will a nationalist split wound it?

Dylan says that the Tories should exclude Plaid Cymru in Conwy as there is no political benefit whatsoever to the Conservatives to have them sitting in the cabinet.

Plaid and the Conservatives have served together in Conwy over the past four years. The fact that the Tories will want to exclude them this time has got nothing to do with sob stories in Gogarth. With Labour hemorrhaging votes and the most Labour part of Conwy having been swapped for a more Plaidish area in the new seat, the next Westminster election is going to be Tory v Plaid in Aberconwy. So it is probably not in either party's best interest for them to work together. However the Plaid group decided that they would not serve in a Tory led council - they have NOT been excluded by the Conservatives!

Looking at the wider picture Plaid has more county councillors today than it has ever had and gained more seats in Wales than the Lib Dems gained in both England and Wales. Interestingly half of the Lib Dems' total gains came from Wales. A good result for both Welsh parties on the whole.

BUT!

When people protest against Labour in Wales either Plaid and or / the Liberal Democrats should be making hay. Neither party (separately or jointly) made the sorts of gains they should have made in the wake of a Labour meltdown!

Next years Euro-elections might be a better indicator of the way the party winds are blowing, when the independents and the localistics won’t muddy the waters as much. However if the natural benefactors of protest votes don’t up the ante during the next twelve months, then the others the Greens, UKIP, the BNP, The Monster Raving Loonies etc might attract sufficient votes to allow Labour to retain its spare Welsh euro-seat.