30/06/2007

The old Plaid or a new party?

I give my electoral support to Plaid Cymru because I believe that Wales should be an independent country. Plaid is the only party that, all be it grudgingly at times, supports this notion.

If you strip away the national aspect my political, economic and social values are much closer to those of Dylan Jones-Evans, Guto Bebb and Glyn Davies than they are to those of Adam Price, Leanne Wood or Bethan Jenkins. But I have no difficulty with working alongside people who support independence with whom I disagree on social and economic policy as long as independence is the main issue.

Unfortunately Plaid has campaigned in every election since at least 1997 on the slogan this election isn't about independence it's about ............. (insert socialist crap here).

I don't want to be a member of a party that puts socialism (or even conservatism) at the top of the agenda I want to be a member of a party that puts nationalism first.

The question is:
What is the best way of ensuring that a party that puts nationalism first and foremost exists? Is it by being inside Plaid and trying to re-capture the party for the nationalist first and foremost cause, or by forming a new nationalist party?

46 comments:

  1. What is the best way of ensuring that a party that puts nationalism first and foremost exists? Is it by being inside Plaid and trying to re-capture the party for the nationalist first and foremost cause, or by forming a new nationalist party?

    The latter. It could even be a pressure group rather than a political party. Plaid is a socialist party, and the idea that nationalists should join it in order to change that is rather akin to the idea that they should join a unionist party in order to convert it to nationalism.

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  2. I give all my support to the cause of nationalism within Plaid Cymru, and its political slant, at this time, is to me irrelevant.
    Nationalism has to be the priority.

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  3. And once you have independence what then? What will you use that self determination to achieve?? If your politics is of the right just stick with the English. They are your natural bedfellows and will probably deliver that result for you at the next general election.

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  4. remember the last time somebody decided to form a new nationalist party?

    I was in college at the time that Cymru Annibynnol were formed, they really didn't have any electoral success and ended up being more explicitly left wing than Plaid is now.

    All very disappointing.

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  5. Despite what the party's constitution says, Plaid's claim to be a 'socialist' party is about as valuable as Labour's claim that it is the same. There are people within Plaid who call themselves socialists and there are an awful lot who don't. So, as you say Alwyn, the question is - what to do?

    The fact of the matter is that under the FPTP electoral system it has been in the interest of all parties to remain 'broad', or otherwise face obscurity.

    This has been redressed - up to a point - in Wales by our present system. This works fine in Germany - which has more or less the same system - with its massive population and Bundestag roughly the same size as Westminster. But a country of Wales' size needs a more equitable PR system (i.e. something that has a better correlation between the percentage of votes gained and the percentage of seats awarded) for a truly pluralist political culture to emerge and to thrive.

    Whilst I sympathise entirely with your feeling, Alwyn, that Plaid has been highjacked by the left, under present circumstances, I can see little to be gained by splitting the nationalist vote. In my opinion, this would, at present, only play into unionist hands. The next constitutional priority is not only to secure a parliament but also a parliament that's worth having, i.e. with tax varying powers etc.

    That is not to say that I would be opposed to such a development once the mechanisms are in place for a more pluralist approach, i.e. once Wales has a) a proper parliament and b) a more equitable form of PR. Depending when both these criteria are met - this needn't be that far in the future.

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  6. Ordo - as you know I don't share your enthusiasm to split the nationalist vote at this juncture, but your call for a pressure group in an interesting one - pressure groups can exert an influence disproportiante to their size. The green movement in Germany is a good example of this.
    And its decision to become a political party and fight from 'within' the system was not without controversy.

    Its success as a political party is also not be measured simply in terms of minesterial posts - although, of course, it secured an absolute coup by landing Joscka Fischer as the world's first 'green' foreign minister - but on the profund way it forced all the other parties to rethink and engage in the 'green' debate, that is no say, no serious poitical party in Germany today can afford not have 'green policies'.

    In many ways, Plaid was essentially a pressure group for the first forty years of its existence, despite the fact that it fought elections. Again, its influence was far greater than its electoral success. Once it became part of the system, and once it had to 'act' like a political party - especially since the formation of the Assembly - this has naturally led to tensions within the party, as indeed is had led to tensions within the Green Party in Germany. All political parties end up doing compromises and often end up compromising their ideals, but such is the nature of parliamentary politics, especially a pluralistic one.

    So, yes, a pressure group is a good idea, because it can allow itself to keep a clear focus on its ideals, and ideals are just as important as practical policies - certainly there is little serious debate in Wales about what kind of society we want to live in, and virtually no serious debate about the issue of independence.

    My question to you Ordo is - what then would be this pressure group's agenda? Would this be a new pressure group, or do you see any advantages in 'Cymuned' entering the parliamentary political fray?

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  7. Simple answer. We get on the phones and make sure everyone entitled to vote at national council turns up and does so.

    This nonsense can still be thrown out.

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  8. My question to you Ordo is - what then would be this pressure group's agenda?

    Independence, left right and centre.

    do you see any advantages in 'Cymuned' entering the parliamentary political fray?

    Cymuned is a communities pressure group that concentrates on the problems of affordable housing and that problem's negative results on local communities. It is a cross-party group, and you don't have to be pro-independence to be a member. You might as well ask if Friends of the Earth Cymru should enter the "parliamentary political fray"

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  9. Ordo - thanks for the answer:)

    Alwyn - any developments on your idea to set up a forum for independence?

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  10. Again Gwe, well said in your two lengthy comments.
    While Plaid needs to concern itself with social issues and with disadvantaged communities it cannot confine itself to adhering to and identifying with socialist ideology. It has to represent all shades of opinion and persuade others to assist in the cause of greater devolution and the establishment of Parliament.
    Alex Salmon was in great form today, entertaining the Queen at Holyrood.

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  11. To answer Alwyn's original question :
    I say there is no need to form a new party. Plaid Cymru is the party that will deliver. Don't worry, it will not be hijacked by fervent socialists and women's groups. It is in good hands.

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  12. Don't worry, it will not be hijacked by fervent socialists and women's groups. It is in good hands.


    ...namely "fervent socialists and women's groups".

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  13. I thought Plaid was already a coalition of support for an independent government for Wales. That's where you find its core support. History has taught us that splitting does not work for Wales.

    The party as it was just before the election was a very attractive proposition. It was very dishonest of the women concerned to keep quiet of their political leanings during the campaign, and soon after making a headline grabbing stunt to show they were serious in being left of the party.

    Like myself I'm sure most Plaid voters expected nothing of the sort.

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  14. alanindyfed said:

    "It is in good hands. "

    The red/green propsals?

    I think not.

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  15. Most Plaid voters are like miserable, they support the party because it is Welsh and seen as pro-independence. Plaid's heart and soul is not socialist even if itsideologues have gained something of a grip over the party machine. Plaid needs a Kinnock style purge to rid the party of these Trotskyite fellow-travellers.

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  16. Lucky old Ireland with two non-socialist parties gaining most of the votes. Really can someone tell me what socialism has ever done for Wales?

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  17. Ordo said:
    "Cymuned is a communities pressure group that concentrates on the problems of affordable housing and that problem's negative results on local communities. It is a cross-party group, and you don't have to be pro-independence to be a member. "

    Excuse me for interrupting, but isn't that like saying it's a leftie type pressure group representing the needs of the most vulnerable in our communities?

    I'm not criticising but I'd like to point out you say it is cross party.

    That is very typical of the way the Welsh see themselves. Cross party. The Rainbow would have worked in Wales given the right goodwill.
    Our big problem is that we are having too much party politics.

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  18. Anon - "Plaid needs a Kinnock style purge to rid the party of these Trotskyite fellow-travellers."

    If it's one thing Plaid doesn't need, it is something inspired by Kinnockio!!

    Like yourself, I wish the 'idealogues' would stop pretending Plaid is a socialist party - because no mainstream party in the UK is - but left wingers have just as much right to be nationalists as you.

    Purge is also a rather soviet word to use, don't you think?

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  19. Our job now is to work with as many people in as many parties as we can in order to maximise the vote for increased powers in a referendum in a few years time. Right now is bridge-building time irrespective of the political affiliation of those that help us deliver the vote. We should be able to carry our own vote reasonably well, we know that grassroots Labour are divided to a far greater extent than they were in 97, and that the Lib-Dem voters in 97 were nothing like as committed to devolution as were their leaders.
    How would you set about influencing the Lib Dem and Conservative parties in the Vale of Clwyd Mark? Further how would build relationships with them with a view to ensuring that party members in all three parties have a better understanding of the members of the other two in time for 2011?

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  20. "Anon - "Plaid needs a Kinnock style purge to rid the party of these Trotskyite fellow-travellers."

    Whenever I see Characters like Adam Price, Bethan Jenkins, and Leanne Wood. The loony left that kept Labour in opposition for 18 years comes to mind!

    Look at Price and all they support all the loony lefts policies, are extremely anti Israel. Talking of illegal wars, what about Kosovo.

    As for Shipton's story, Hayzell David might be fictitious, the story may not be.

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  21. Anonymous said...
    "Anon - "Plaid needs a Kinnock style purge to rid the party of these Trotskyite fellow-travellers."

    I will try this again! Too tired. The problem with Adam Price and his cohorts. They seemed to resemble the “loony” left of the 80s Labour Party. Down to their strident anti Israeli views. If they keep on Plaid could end up in the same mess as Labour was.

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  22. Anonymous said:
    "The problem with Adam Price and his cohorts. They seemed to resemble the “loony” left of the 80s Labour Party. Down to their strident anti Israeli views. If they keep on Plaid could end up in the same mess as Labour was. "

    That's what I fear. It would be a backward step after so many years of building the support up in Wales.

    Those lefties were intimidating. Their propaganda not dissimilar to the 'pink' views on some of the leftie Plaid blogs.

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  23. Diolch i'r Arglywydd for the balanced remarks of Garedig. A welcome change from the agitated voices of those who rant on about the 'loony left'.
    Let them drop the politics of the past and move on. We need no more talk from the men of Yesterday.

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  24. Diolch i'r Arglywydd for the balanced remarks of Garedig. A welcome change from the agitated voices of those who rant on about the 'loony left'.


    Nervous Alan? In effect you are saying "Thank god there's a blogger ready to tow the party line besides me"

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  25. alanindyfed said:

    "Let them drop the politics of the past and move on. We need no more talk from the men of Yesterday. "

    Spin. Spin. Spin.
    The kind used in brain washing.
    Also used by politicians who have shadowy agendas.

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  26. I have followed this “Hayzell David” thing with interest, and can understand why it really has been blown out of proportion. As a liberal of sorts (who after living in the US for years has embraced communitarianism, I am sort of in the radical centre!) That is irrelevant and too much waffle. I understand why a conservative nationalist would read AlaninDyfed’s post on his blog, and think merger! At face value. What else could it mean, especially with the last couple of sentences about Plaid and the Welsh SDP working together.

    In addition, I think both Alan and Adam were upsetting nationalist of the traditional mould by their strident posts (Alan’s cut and paste comment that he was posting everywhere and Adam’s love affair with Gramsci).

    That is where the problem lies. Before 1981, Plaid could be compared to the Anglican Church. A broad church that was inclusive, it included radical socialist, as well as traditional “Tory” types! When the party constitution was amended to include “socialist,” that consensus broke. Was Plaid going to be a “sectarian” party? Rather like the Anglo Catholics imposing transubstatiation on the Church of England.”

    No, it still is a broad church. However, are the cracks getting bigger?

    BTW, I have started posting on my blog. Hope to put out another post on the 4th of July! ;)

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  27. Have posted an alternative 7 4 july 7th on my blogg.

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  28. No, Plaid continues to be a broad church despit what others say and the efforts of those who would promote their socialist agenda. Plaid works for its own interests which are incidentally the interests of Wales and the Welsh people. In all my writings I have stressed the need for a united approach to the cause of national freedom. In unity lies strength. I predict a massive yes vote at both conferences this weekend.

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  29. No, Plaid continues to be a broad church

    Plaid stopped being a broad church a long time ago. It is a socialist party. End of story.

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  30. .....continues to be a broad church despit what others say ....

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  31. Thank you Ordovicius. Poacher has turned gamekeeper eh?
    If the referendum was held in my workplace now we would not have a fourth assembly let alone increased powers. Many just cannot understand why politicians just will not get on and work together. The argument over who sits where is the most prevalent memory of the second assembly.
    If Cymrumark has his way on Saturday, Rhodri may happily resign at a time of his choice and the public will blame Plaid for the ensuing election.
    Having voted unanimously to endorse the One Wales document the AMs would not be in a position to resurect the All Wales accord. The alternative on Saturday is to remain in opposition without it being the AMs choice. Many of the public will believe that the fifteen AMs will have been rejected by their own party.
    The increasing tendency for the welsh of the centre right to join the Welsh Conservatives has increased their focus on Wales.
    On the extreme left Robert Griffiths has done a lot to help the British Communist Party appreciate that Wales is a country with its own nation.
    These two changes have contributed to the reduction in the intensity and bitterness of many the debates at Conference and Council.
    Anyone seriously in favour of a tripartite arrangement is best now to build support for the referendum vote and a wider understanding of other parties. Twice now people have been led to believe by opinion polls that the position was better than the votes counted suggested.

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  32. Garenig, the All Wales Accord is dead (as a dodo). At both conferences the vote will be a "yes" and the opposition parties,as well as ex-rainbow advocates, will see the way the wind is blowing and will support progress towards a referendum, but the timing will be critical and a date chosen very carefully. Otherwise things will be set back for a generation.

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  33. garenig said:

    "On the extreme left Robert Griffiths has done a lot to help the British Communist Party appreciate that Wales is a country with its own nation"

    How many votes did the British Communist Party get? They're about as relevant to the modern world as the Jacobites and the Shakers, just another failed social experiment that cost millions of lives.

    Look at how many votes the other socialist parties gained the Islamofascist Respect or the Scargillites. Votes that show just how much contempt the people have for these loons.

    Yet Plaid's left wing are part and parcel of the same crowd. They dishonour the Welsh national cause when they campaign side-by-side with such creatures.

    Fair play to Labour IRA wannabe Mcdonnell and 9/11 idiot Meacher failed to drum up enough support to even get nominated to stand against Brown. Good for you Labour.

    Meanwhile Plaid Cymru has signed up for a failed socialist ideology, an historical dead end that did nothing for our country in its heyday and certainly has nothing to offer its future.

    Where does that leave those of us who want to support a Welsh party not a bunch of Trot fellow-travellers.

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  34. Time was I used to take an interest in all these mini-leftist groups. In the same way I suppose as some people like to follow the ups and downs of the Scottish Second Division clubs.

    I see that Robert Griffiths is now General Secretary of the Communist Party of Britain ... er wow.

    The Stalinists of the New Communist Party seem a more honest bunch, is Lorraine Barrett's hubby still a leading member?

    The Socialist Workers Party, as somebody said they've descended into fascism.

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  35. Anonymous 21:09


    I am guessing that you disgree with things like the National Health Service? There is a whole list of "socialist" things that have been a big benifit to Britain. and the people of Wales, and the idealogy of the centre-left is far from dead.

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  36. Sorry Alwyn ap Huw, not trying to hi-jack this discussion. I just want to ask, do you think that independence is strong enough in itself for Plaid to get votes?

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  37. To the bloggers of free Wales!

    Happy Independence Day (July4th)

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  38. anonymous said:
    "Whenever I see Characters like Adam Price, Bethan Jenkins, and Leanne Wood. The loony left that kept Labour in opposition for 18 years comes to mind!"

    They are isolated as a group now. We are aware of them and can deal with them. It is a pity the women's group has been highjacked by lefties. If nothing is done soon then they will continue to choose these extreme candidates and put them ahead of good candidates on election list. It really is taking advantage of an honest system.

    I'm sure all this will be discussed at the meeting on Saturday. It really deserves priority in the circumstances.

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  39. Anonymous said:
    "The Socialist Workers Party, as somebody said they've descended into fascism. "

    Maybe you and I are old enough to remember that these extreme groups have always been around and have always tried to infiltrate our political parties. Every party has had the problem over the years.

    To cope the party needs a strong leader who will not give and inch to their demands and threats because it can come to that.

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  40. Anonymous said:

    "They are isolated as a group now. We are aware of them and can deal with them. It is a pity the women's group has been highjacked by lefties. If nothing is done soon then they will continue to choose these extreme candidates and put them ahead of good candidates on election list. It really is taking advantage of an honest system."

    From what I recall of the so called "loony left" of 1980s Labour that it was not predominantly Trotskyite groups like "Militant", that were the majority of it. The hard (loony) left consisted mostly of the likes of Arthur Scargill, Tony Benn etal . The SWP never attempted "entryism" (sounds like a kinky type of sex).

    From my prespective the so called left in Plaid are what remains of the New Left (Gramsci, Raymond Williams and all) What I would call the "social worker" left. In the US they would a lot in common with the likes of Jessie Jackson and Michael Moore. More like liberals to me.

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  41. It is right of Morgan Hen to refer to the "so-called" left in Plaid. Plaid is a party which believes in equality and fairness to all sections of the community. It believes that state funding should be provided for health, transport, education, housing and other basic necessities. It believes in creating the conditions for economic prosperity and safeguards the environment, the culture, language and the agricultural sector. If this is the "so-called left" so be it.

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  42. Jesse Jackson! Michael Moore! ....... arggh! .... what absolute charlatans.

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  43. alanindyfed said...
    "It is right of Morgan Hen to refer to the "so-called" left in Plaid."

    It appears to be the hot topic now, and will no doubt be one of the hot topics with the Plaid NE next Saturday.

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  44. Alaninblunderland!

    Actually I do believe in that. But not if it means that we are taxed to death. Also I would like to apologize to my liberal brothers and sisters concerning my comparison of Moore and Jackson. Liberals they aint! they are demagogues of the worst order.

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  45. Just remember Thomas Jefferson believed that all "men" are equal. He had slaves though!

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  46. Plaid needs a Kinnock style purge to rid the party of these Trotskyite fellow-travellers.

    Have just stumbled across this rat's nest of bile and bitterness... how amusing that you think some left coterie is in control of Plaid. IWJ? Dafydd Trystan? John Dixon? Alun Ffred? Gareth Jones? Rhodri Glyn? Dai Lloyd? Jocelyn Davies? Trots?

    As any fool knows, but not apparently the fools writing here, the Trot left in Wales doesn't recognise Wales as an oppressed nation. Consequently there are no Trots in Plaid or indeed any organised left group in the party, but Plaid has a long history of socialism going back to that founding meeting in 1925.

    If people have a problem with libertarian socialism/community socialism - i.e. the people having power in their community and workplace - they better start articulating that opposition.

    I take it that Old Rhech's love of the Tories extends to privatising the NHS via PFI and selling of council housing. I take it he wants big business setting up "city academies" and the wealth gap to increase. This happened under the Tories and Blair picked up the baton eagerly because he too is a tory in all but name.

    Instead of articulating their policies for a free captialist Wales, the few right-wing nationalists who lurk here seem happy to bitch about a non-existent plot to takeover Plaid, make pathetic remarks and insults against some of Plaid's most articulate elected representatives and daydream of a new party.

    Go ahead - please!

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