One of the opposition arguments made, not so much against the SNP, but against the people of Scotland is that they may sleepwalk into independence!
The argument is that the people of Scotland are so star struck by Alex Salmond, that they might vote YES in a referendum because of what they feel in their bellies, rather than what they know in their heads; Mr Salmond's charisma might mesmerise them into voting for independence against their better judgement!
Or, to put it in other words, the people of Scotland may support independence in a referendum because they are too stupid to know better! A good unionist vote winning strategy!!!!
At the moment the Unionist supporters seem to be banking on the fact that the vote will go their way. They might be right, they might be wrong, who knows until the votes are counted?
Supposing that Scotland votes YES and becomes independent, where does that leave Wales, where does it leave England?
The term used in the Scottish blogosphere is rUK (remainder United Kingdom), which is fair enough from a Scottish prospective – but where does it leave those of us who continue to live in the remainder?
I have heard of no plans from the Conservatives, the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats nor even Plaid and MK about what happens next IF Scotland votes for Independence.
Which raises the question Who are the Sleepwalkers?. What are the people of England, Wales, Cornwall and the north of Ireland going to do, going to be, if Scotland becomes independent?
Surely all parties need to plan for the inevitability of Scottish Independence and its ramifications for the rest of us! Sleepwalking into post Scottish Independence must not be an option!
Wales will become independent by default!
ReplyDeleteThere are very many (you label them Unionists), who, far from "banking on the fact that the vote will go their way", are getting ready for the farewell party, Scotland has become a distraction not needed on the current constitutional journey.
ReplyDeleteAs for the remainder it reverts to Great Britain (England, Wales and Northern Ireland), peoples who prefer the interdependence of modernity, liberalism, and democracy found in our great country.
Sleepwalking is not on the agenda, the farewell party for Scotland is eagerly anticipated.
Great Britain was created by the 1707 Acts of Union. Should Scotland become independent I reckon the Scots would take Britishness away with them. We would be looking at a omplete 'rebranding' exercise: no more BBC, no British army, no British Government.
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot ot talk about the status quo ante 1707 i.e. the re-emergence of Scotland and England but that's hardly the case.
John:
ReplyDeletePolitically, Great Britain is defined as England, Scotland and Wales. It excludes Northern Ireland.
If Scotland were to exit, then the remainder, the rump, England and Wales, could not be named 'Great Britain'. In any case, NI would not be included.
Naming it could be a problem.
I hope the Scots take the decision to form a sovereign nation state, and that subsequently the people of Wales follow.
In any case should Scotland exit, Wales' relationship with England (and NI) will have to be redefined, as the UK, of which Wales is now a constituent part, will no longer exist. No doubt these issues will be dealt with in the event.
I don't recognise your description of the UK. Your adjectives are pretentious, and don't match the reality. THE UK is not a modern country, it is outmoded in just about every respect, lagging behind most of its western counterparts.
As for 'liberal', after the US it has the second highest prison population of the developed countries. Its citizens have no constitutional rights.
As for 'democratic', that's a joke. An unelected hereditary privileged head of state, an unelected legislative chamber, with hereditary members, and even church bishops, and a voting system in which most of our votes don't count.
Lastly, 'great'... don't make me laugh.
The current "Great Britain" is nothing more than the rump of an Empire built on the theft of other peoples land and natural resources. It was born from bloodshed and what we are viewing is its final disintegration. It is an example of where the "Whole" is much less than the "sum of its parts"
ReplyDeleteWe are viewing on an almost daily basis the ineptitude and corruption of its institutions. The only hope that unionists have is "Devomax" as a sop to full Independence. But I think this strategy will fail as the moral bankruptcy of the current right wing Unionist government becomes ever more exposed.
The starting pistol will be started by the Scots but the right wing press in England have unleashed an English nationalism that will demand cessation from what is left of the Celtic fringe. Why should they, as they see it, continue to subsidise the Celts? Either way as has been stated, we get freedom by default and the sooner the better!
Politically speaking, post Scotland Great Britain would remain as Great Britain, you cannot believe for a moment that losing Scotland would change the body politic of our kingdom.
ReplyDeleteIt will, waving goodbye to Scotland, have a positive transformation on the psyche of Wales, the realisation that interdependence is by far preferable to the wilderness offered by Plaid and friends.
Of modernity, liberalism, and democracy, it is not to be found in Llandudno, the sound-bites coming from "North Wales Theatre" are very yesterday, sad because in past years good ideas have floated from the conference floor.
This unionist is outed as being pretentious, so he comes back to outdo himself once more.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who thinks that Scotland becoming independent will make the Welsh less likely to want to follow suit is dreaming.
ReplyDeleteAfter Scottish independence many of those Welsh currently against independence will change their minds when it dawns on them that with Scotland gone and Wales with fewer MPs - who will probably be debarred from 'English-only' votes - the prospect of near-permanent Conservative rule is inevitable.
Even without that, what sort of Union will there be to look forward to? The Catholic birthrate in the Six Counties, coupled with Protestant emigration, guarantees a united Ireland within a decade or two. We'll be stuck with Englandandwales with complete absorption on the horizon.
When that happens the only ones still pushing the Union will be the dreamers and the romantics, plus of course, the anti-Welsh. So roll on Scottish independence!
I am not sure that I understand the point that you are making John. The name of what is left if Scotland leaves the UK is irrelevant, what concerns me is what sort of political entity it will be. At the moment all of the political parties seem to be ignoring this issue. Even if, as you seem to suggest, the remainder just carries on as if nothing has changed, political movements need to work out how to insure that happens – it's not going to happen automatically.
ReplyDeleteI would agree that there is a body of opinion in England that believes that Scotland should bugger off and close the door behind them (this is not the official policy of any political party as far as I know); what confuses me is your support for them; because most of those who express such an opinion also want Wales to bugger of too – but you are opposed to Welsh independence.
The reason for his support is obvious. He's clearly an inglishman living in Wales. What other reason could he have to justify his anti-Welsh pro colonial views.
ReplyDeleteI say pro colonial not pro unionist because after taking one look at his blog it's clear he wants Wales to become a region of ingurlund.
Hi Alwyn, I only just read your comment, it deserves a thoughtful answer, I will write a response in my blog in a day or two. It will be entitled "... a thoughtful response to Alwyn".
ReplyDeleteStuart you are easier to answer ...
inglishman should read englishman, and no I consider myself to be British-Welsh, the term anti-Welsh would be considered antagonistic by many, your expression "anti-Welsh pro colonial" is unintelligible to a citizen of the 21st century post devolution.
I would prefer Wales not to be Plaid dominated that aside it is democracy that will form tomorrows Wales, and ingurland is spelt England.
Just read your blog, John. Who exactly are "the peoples of Wales"?
ReplyDeleteThere was a pretty good debate on Radio Wales (Radio Wales phone in) about Plaid Cymru and Independence for Wales, today. I was struck by the fact that the debate wasn't hijacked by the usual suspects and that most people giving their views were at least open to discussing the subject.
ReplyDeleteIndeed most gave the impression that they were in favour of Wales going its own way. I can not remember a case when this has happened before and is a mixture of the effects of the "good governance" example in Scotland coupled with the opposite example at the Unionist level.
Being the wrong side of 50 myself, I had just about given up the hope of Welsh independence in my lifetime. However now I am not so sure especially as our English neighbours are also waking up to their lack of identity in the Unionist model. We certainly do live in interesting and evolving times!
As you rightly say Alwyn we certainly do need to start preparing ourselves for the inevitable.
Heard that debate, very encouraging. Some good honest feedback from HMJ about Plaid being rudderless.
ReplyDeleteAs for the inglish (sorry Jonny but it's 'fannetick') they are just worried that they will get "dumped" and are trying to save face by wanting to be the ones doing the "dumping".
One of the best messages read out was from a lady who suggested reversing the argument so we had to think of reasons why we'd want to form a union with the inglish.
Nope, I can't think of any either.
As for the inglish (sorry Jonny but it's 'fannetick') they are just worried that they will get "dumped" and are trying to save face by wanting to be the ones doing the "dumping".
ReplyDeleteI doubt most English people including me could care less if Wales declares independence. In fact more and more of us including me would welcome it! Same goes for Scotland. It's time that we ended this farce and all went our separate ways.
^^^ He's scared of being dumped so is acting all nonchalant about it.
ReplyDeleteI think it's the other way round. Many Welsh people are scared stiff of cutting adrift from England. Why else would there be so much dithering about independence?
ReplyDelete